Back seat/ Front seat crew member roles

[rweaves6]

Hi all. I was hoping to get some clarification on what each seat positions’ roles are. 
I haven’t seen a specifics thread on the matter. 
I’m referring to specific real life roles, not how the AI will be implemented…etc. 

I’m most interested in simulating the rear seat pilots role and it would be great to understand what exactly the pilot is responsible for, and what I will be depending on my front seat crew member for. I’ve played all the old Apache titles (Janes…etc) and they were always a mix match of roles.

Many thanks.

 

[Raptor9]

I kind of gave my own description of it in the comment below from another thread.  It's nothing doctrinal, but paraphrased to be more plain speak.

[rweaves6]

Thanks Raptor, I appreciate you pointing me to your summary. I’m still a bit confused and ignorant on the subject.
 

I suppose I had assumed that the Apache crew members have a similar setup to the F14, with pilot and RIO where one does all the flying and delivers the weapons while the other operates the systems. So this is different in the Apache?
 

Do both crew members have the same qualifications and training, meaning are they both pilots? Do crew members often jump between front and back seat roles or is it that if you’re a back seater, you are always a back seater? Does the front seater actually fire/deliver all the weapons and guns? 

thanks 

[kgillers3]

15 minutes ago, rweaves6 said:

Thanks Raptor, I appreciate you pointing me to your summary. I’m still a bit confused and ignorant on the subject.
 

I suppose I had assumed that the Apache crew members have a similar setup to the F14, with pilot and RIO where one does all the flying and delivers the weapons while the other operates the systems. So this is different in the Apache?
 

Do both crew members have the same qualifications and training, meaning are they both pilots? Do crew members often jump between front and back seat roles or is it that if you’re a back seater, you are always a back seater? Does the front seater actually fire/deliver all the weapons and guns? 

thanks 

Yes they are both fully qualified pilots (speaking primarily on the American side). There are sub roles, so there is a pilot in command or pc and a pilot. Generally dictated by experience.  Sometimes there are dual pc cockpits depending on situation and pilot availability but for all intents and purposes one is in charge. Quite the rabbit hole to go down so I’ll leave it there. 
 

Where each sits typically is dependent on nation, mission, and hour requirements (we have to have a certain amount of time in each seat annually). 
 

Who’s firing the weapons is situation and engagement specific. Generally (not always) close engagements for self defense are pilot station, far engagements are cpg station. Rockets are almost always shot by back station due to the requirement of maneuvering the aircraft even if guidance is coming from the front seat, missiles  are almost always shot from front station. There are always exceptions. 
 

it all depends on the mission, situation, and crew skill. 
 

this won’t necessarily play out the same with an ai flying single pilot in dcs. 
 

dutch and British pilots are both qualified as well I believe. Don’t know about the other nations

Edited October 21, 2021 by kgillers3

[Raptor9]

59 minutes ago, rweaves6 said:

I suppose I had assumed that the Apache crew members have a similar setup to the F14, with pilot and RIO where one does all the flying and delivers the weapons while the other operates the systems. So this is different in the Apache?

To tag on to what @kgillers3 explained...The AH-64A was certainly much more like the F-14, in that both crewmembers had clearly defined roles, but mostly out of a technical necessity.  I'll give you an example in regards to your previous questions regarding DVO and such.  Direct View Optics was a telescopic sight that used a system of lenses and mirrors to redirect the telescopic view from the DVO optics physically located in the TADS turret to the ORT (Optical Relay Tube) Heads Down Display (see image) located in the front cockpit.  Because of the mechanics to relay an image in such a manner, this is why the gunner is in the front seat.  Same reason applied to other aircraft that used such direct optics like the AH-1 and Mi-24, the gunner was in the front seat due to the type of analog optics mounted in/on the aircraft's nose.

The FLIR and DTV, being electronic signals, could be relayed to the HOD/Heads Out Display, which was just a greenscale video screen.  In reality, the AH-64D/E aircraft equipped with TEDAC could very well have the pilot in the front seat and the gunner in the back since all optics are relayed using electronic video signals, but that would require a complete redesign of the Apache cockpits, controls, and it would be a complete waste of resources and money.  But with the advent of modern electronics, the gunner doesn't have to be in the front seat anymore, and I would wager that any future designs the pilot will be in the front seat, but different discussion altogether.

So the roles are still set, but it is less about technical limitations and more about tactical employment.  And as mentioned, there are very few things that can only be done in one seat versus the other in the AH-64D, and this is one of the reasons why an instructor pilot can easily hop between seats during training in the AH-64D.  There are some considerations that need to be evaluated of course, but for the most part, the seats in the AH-64D mostly represent a "role" within the aircrew versus a "capability" or "training".  Think of it like an F-16 or A-10 wingman.  A wingman is flying the same aircraft and probably has the same capabilities/weapons as his flight lead, but the duties and role within that 2-ship often vary between that flight lead and his wingman, and the specific duties assigned to each member of that team will be dependent on the nature of the mission, crew skill/proficiency, or events that un-fold during the mission.

59 minutes ago, rweaves6 said:

Do both crew members have the same qualifications and training, meaning are they both pilots? Do crew members often jump between front and back seat roles or is it that if you’re a back seater, you are always a back seater? Does the front seater actually fire/deliver all the weapons and guns? 

Every pilot that graduates from the Apache course in the US Army is fully qualified in both seats.  But as @kgillers3 outlined, there are more factors that drive who sits in what seat for a given mission.  Experience, proficiency, duties in the formation, complexity of the mission, C3 (Command, Control, Communication) requirements for that mission, etc. These are all factors that drive how pilots are paired up during a mission, what position they fly in the formation, and what seat they will occupy.

It's always going to be the PC's (Pilot-in-Command) call on what seat he occupies during the flight, but it will usually be based on all those factors above.  Further, PC is not rank or position dependent (in the US Army at least).  You could have a CW2 flying with a Colonel and the CW2 may be the PC.  Likewise, the person in command of that formation (AMC/Air Mission Commander in US Army terms) may not be the highest-ranking aviator within the formation.  Typically, it's based on who has the best combination of experience, judgement, and skill set that is best suited to accomplish that mission.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Raptor9

[rweaves6]

Wonderful responses Raptor9 and Kgillers3, many thanks for that. I now have a far better understanding of the late and early variant Apache crewmember responsibilities. 

I'd still love to dive deeper in this and try to better understand the Tactical Deployment workflow. I find it an interesting and relevant discussion, and with better understanding it may allow some to better enjoy simulating operations in the Apache. That said, I don't expect you two to waste anymore time explaining things to me haha. You've been generous with your knowledge and insight and I'm thankful. Cheers

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, rweaves6 said:

I'd still love to dive deeper in this and try to better understand the Tactical Deployment workflow. I find it an interesting and relevant discussion, and with better understanding it may allow some to better enjoy simulating operations in the Apache.

No problem, but some of that topic may be off-limits for discussion depending on what the questions are.

[kgillers3]

1 hour ago, rweaves6 said:

Wonderful responses Raptor9 and Kgillers3, many thanks for that. I now have a far better understanding of the late and early variant Apache crewmember responsibilities. 

I'd still love to dive deeper in this and try to better understand the Tactical Deployment workflow. I find it an interesting and relevant discussion, and with better understanding it may allow some to better enjoy simulating operations in the Apache. That said, I don't expect you two to waste anymore time explaining things to me haha. You've been generous with your knowledge and insight and I'm thankful. Cheers

Best way to think of it is think of a crew of a ifv or tank. Two people working separate tasks in the same vehicle so that the vehicle can accomplish a task. 

[Remco]

4 hours ago, kgillers3 said:

Best way to think of it is think of a crew of a ifv or tank. Two people working separate tasks in the same vehicle so that the vehicle can accomplish a task. 

I prefer comparing it to civilian aviation and CRM. Just like in a jetliner you have a "Pilot" and a "Co-pilot", clue's in the name of the Apache's frontseater, it's not called a WSO or RIO, its called a CPG, Co-Pilot Gunner.

Civilian CRM in an airbus is very similar to CRM in an Apache, you have two pilots flying the aircraft together and using CRM to manage their situation dependent tasks. We just get a lot more toys to play with, like guns... and rockets...

[kgillers3]

2 hours ago, Remco said:

I prefer comparing it to civilian aviation and CRM. Just like in a jetliner you have a "Pilot" and a "Co-pilot", clue's in the name of the Apache's frontseater, it's not called a WSO or RIO, its called a CPG, Co-Pilot Gunner.

Civilian CRM in an airbus is very similar to CRM in an Apache, you have two pilots flying the aircraft together and using CRM to manage their situation dependent tasks. We just get a lot more toys to play with, like guns... and rockets...

That's another way of thinking about it, I just think of it two people doing two different things where I consider (correct me if I'm wrong) in an airliner for most circumstances you have pilot and pilot monitoring basically doing same thing. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by kgillers3

[whiteladder]

I don`t want to drag this to far off topic but..

@Raptor9 I have seen the picture of the AH-64A cockpit a number of times before and have always wondered this, why is one of the lens in the HDD blank off?  Is it because of the helmet sight and if so why is the the left one covered?  

Edited October 22, 2021 by whiteladder

[Volator]

8 hours ago, kgillers3 said:

in an airliner for most circumstances you have pilot and pilot monitoring basically doing same thing. 

Not really. I tend to find the label PM (pilot monitoring) misleading. Sure, he is monitoring the pilot flying to crosscheck, but also works comms, checklists and so on, which the PF doesn't. There's more involved than just "watching the other guy/gal fly the plane", we can speak of two different tasks here.

[Raptor9]

2 hours ago, whiteladder said:

I have seen the picture of the AH-64A cockpit a number of times before and have always wondered this, why is one of the lens in the HDD blank off?  Is it because of the helmet sight and if so why is the the left one covered? 

Not because of the helmet sight. The HDU/Helmet Display Unit needed to be rotated to the side for the CPG to place his face to the HDD face guard. The DVO was like looking through a telescope, so it was only one eyepiece. I don't recall if the ORT eyepiece could be swapped to the other side or not, I was pretty new when those were in the fleet.

[Remco]

41 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Not because of the helmet sight. The HDU/Helmet Display Unit needed to be rotated to the side for the CPG to place his face to the HDD face guard. The DVO was like looking through a telescope, so it was only one eyepiece. I don't recall if the ORT eyepiece could be swapped to the other side or not, I was pretty new when those were in the fleet.

Yeah you could swap the old ORT to whichever eye you preferred.

[whiteladder]

Thanks Guys!!!

 

Another stupid Question, if the Pilot is whisking the cyclic about in the back seat does it also move the Cyclic in the front seat?

[Raptor9]

30 minutes ago, whiteladder said:

 if the Pilot is whisking the cyclic about in the back seat does it also move the Cyclic in the front seat?

Yes. And if it isn't, you probably want to climb out and tell a crew chief.

[Sinclair_76]

13 hours ago, Remco said:

I prefer comparing it to civilian aviation and CRM. Just like in a jetliner you have a "Pilot" and a "Co-pilot", clue's in the name of the Apache's frontseater, it's not called a WSO or RIO, its called a CPG, Co-Pilot Gunner.

Civilian CRM in an airbus is very similar to CRM in an Apache, you have two pilots flying the aircraft together and using CRM to manage their situation dependent tasks. We just get a lot more toys to play with, like guns... and rockets...

Slightly different. In the civilian side you have pilot flying and pilot monitoring. The pm will check what the pf is doing and answer the radio's. But both pilots  SA should be the 100% the same at all times. I imagine it's not the same for the -64. But then again I had a party yesterday evening and my mind is slightly foggy  

[Volator]

13 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

We can have different opinions.

Of course we can, don't let anyone tell you we can't 

[Sinclair_76]

18 minutes ago, Pilot Ike said:

Of course we can, don't let anyone tell you we can't 

Boring, I want to see sparks fly.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Sinclair_76