Help building pc just for DCS

[Bossco82]

There you go Lucshep has cleared that up nicely. As for pick your poison I would go 3200Mhz C14 everyday, but thats my choice. 

Ged, dont be too confused. I think we are all being cautious because your going to put a lot of money into this machine.

At the end of the day. A 12900k with 64gb DDR4, Z690, the Samsung Nvme SSD and a 3090 are going to run really well. If I had the money I would spend mine on this stuff put it that way.

[Thinder]

53 minutes ago, LucShep said:

This freakish game gets hungrier each new release, it devours every available resources and, given the chance, it'll now chew over 40GB of RAM when in Multiplayer at populated servers.

What no one has mentioned so far is the way you guys are setting up your systems, because if you have multiple apps running in the background, unsorted paging files, game installed on the same disk than the O.S etc, there is no valid comparison possible.

Then 64GB of Cl16 aren't going to do much better than 32GB of Cl14 bounded to an optimized system, since most of the RAM will be allocated to the game, and of course DCS is really demanding when it comes to RAM but I doubt very much that it is that much harder to deal with than a 3D Mark 4K test designed to pull the hell of it.

Don't forget how RAM is working it will recycle data as long as its channel to CPU is not limited and there is a bottleneck with Cl16 non B.die kits, 6.04% difference CPU and 1.55% GPU speed with my old kit, 64GB of it wouldn't have changed anything.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Thinder

[LucShep]

2 hours ago, Thinder said:

What no one has mentioned so far is the way you guys are setting up your systems, because if you have multiple apps running in the background, unsorted paging files, game installed on the same disk than the O.S etc, there is no valid comparison possible.

Then 64GB of Cl16 aren't going to do much better than 32GB of Cl14 bounded to an optimized system, since most of the RAM will be allocated to the game, and of course DCS is really demanding when it comes to RAM but I doubt very much that it is that much harder to deal with than a 3D Mark 4K test designed to pull the hell of it.

Don't forget how RAM is working it will recycle data as long as its channel to CPU is not limited and there is a bottleneck with Cl16 non B.die kits, 6.04% difference speed with my old kit, 64GB of it wouldn't have changed anything.

 

I think you're refering to my post.
If you are, then you're not paying attention, as the recommended 64GB DDR4 kits are, in fact, Samsung B-die (3200Mhz 14-14-14-34 and 3600 16-16-16-36, Gskill Trident-Z). That's first.

Second, and we're going off topic (sorry Ged!) there is a reason why most are getting 64GB of RAM, especially for Multiplayer.
Optimizing system, big pagefile on fastest drive, and closing unecessary apps, that is all par for the course - it always has been for DCS. 

The problem here is that DCS uses a gazillion of files, and extremely large, oversized textures - 4K diffuse maps, normal maps, specular maps, and other whatever maps, and too many of these are enormous 32-bit (not 8-bit like so many of us requested), used on most of the things you see in game. That puts a really, really huge toll on the system.
And then there are more modules, and more oversized files, etc.

In DCS, when in SP, you only have to load the textures of the modules you own. Already harsh on its own (VRAM always over 6.5GB even in simple free flight missions).
But in MP, when someone else joins, you have to load his/her textures as well (!), on top of yours. And this is for you, me, and each user in the server.

Now imagine a really populated MP server, and this constant loading of textures that accumulates into the VRAM of the GPU (8GB in most user cases), and it becomes saturated (it easily does)..... that's right, it automatically offloads into the RAM (which is always slower, and why speed/latency may play a role here).
And next, you can guess what happens when your 32GB kit capacity (and mine as well) becomes saturated enough (and it does)... that's right, stutter fest, while the pagefile in the drive is the next victim, which is even slower (much slower), no matter what super SSD/NVME you may have, itself already busy extracting all the files from the respective .ZIP file game packages and then swaping... 
You see, you can not add more VRAM to a GPU, but at least you can have more RAM capacity in your system, which is preferable in performance to the pagefile in the drive.

Yes, so many things are inefficient in DCS but, unfortunately, it is what it is (and a subject for other topics).
Just get the 64GB low latency kit and don't look back, overkill as it may appear, be happy for making the better choice.
 

Edited November 17, 2021 by LucShep

[Bossco82]

Yeah just to clarify this a bit more. I have 32gb in my system because I only really play single player campaigns and missions. I have never even tried the multiplayer. I rarely see over 20-22gb. That's strictly single player though.

So if your going to play multi Ged, get 64gb.

[Thinder]

Quote

Second, and we're going off topic (sorry Ged!) there is a reason why those going for Multiplayer are now getting 64GB of RAM.
Optimizing system, big page file on fastest drive, and closing unecessary apps, that is all par for the course - it always has been for DCS. 

I mentioned this issue several time over in this forum, looking at the reaction it didn't seems that way and I think it's a hell of an assumption to say that players having trouble in multiplayers are taking that much care of their system, then if you are building a gaming PC it is far from being off topic.

I built my system as a mid-range and I'm not even looking for 90FPS (like some) performance that's for a start, second, you might want to get this sort of performance by splashing above £500 to gain what? 20FPS?

As I said, I don't think an optimized system with 32GB of Cl14 B.Die bounded to a 5600X will fare that bad even in DCS Multiplayer and looking at what I get out of my system testing it at 4K X 2 MSAA I don't expect to run into trouble with FPS once I will have upgraded my GPU, most probably to a 3080Ti...

So how many players have had those issues in the condition you mentioned with the solution I have now and how many chose B.Die kits for their upgrades?

 

Quote

Next, the latency (think of it as the response time of memory). 
This can be even more important than speed for a very intensive sim/game like DCS

It is the most important simply because it removes the bottlenecks existing and the gain is substential with a 5600X, I should know, I upgraded from a Cl16 kit, right now, I have a 9.52% GPU bottleneck with a 1080Ti, a 3080 would only reduce it to 3.47%, so I know I have some margin, that's what this 32BG RAM bounded to a 5600X kit does.

 

Quote

In DCS, when in SP you only have to load the textures of the modules you own. Already harsh on its own.
But in MP, when someone else joins, you have to load his/her textures as well (!), and this is for you, me, and each user in the server.

I'm perfectly aware of all of that, I played SP in VR with quite high settings and it was smooth even with the Cl16 kit, then if you're looking at the highest settings with this game you have to build a high end and it's not what I am looking at, I'm satisfied with lower settings and FPS that's what you get when you spend half the money than you suggest to play this game.

Then you mentioned the REAL issue you have which is VRAM and GPU performance, to put it bluntly, I have 11GB of VRAM already and I'm not planning to get less with my GPU upgrade, this way my GPU won't have to wait for the RAM, actually it is the other way around, the RAM can't recycle to the GPU if VRAM only 8GB, does it occur to you guys that the RAM could have to wait for the GPU and not the other way around?

32GB of Cl14 B.die remove the RAM-CPU bottleneck with a subtential gain in CPU speed, Sort your GPU bootlenecks and you will see what it really can do.

Now. We all know that DCS is heavy on GPU use at high resolutions and considering that even a 3080 would be the bottleneck with a 5600X I am not so anxious about heavier loads than playing SP in VR, as I said I'm not looking at too high FPS or settings.

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Thinder

[Bossco82]

Hi Ged,

Just a question to help suggest parts. Where are you in the world. I'm in the UK so any suggestions I made would be based on what I see in stock here.

[LucShep]

12 hours ago, Thinder said:

I mentioned this issue several time over in this forum, looking at the reaction it didn't seems that way and I think it's a hell of an assumption to say that players having trouble in multiplayers are taking that much care of their system, then if you are building a gaming PC it is far from being off topic.

It is that way, the problem has been discussed with some data to back it up (but has been simply dismissed). See the threads pointed below if curious.

And if even users who do take care of their systems have troubles, then it is NOT an assumption at all.

The reality is that E.D. and 3rd parties have decided on absurd texture sizes for everything, including less important objects, while at the same time there is a visible struggle with VRAM management, and the problem is less about the specific decisions to use a certain compression/size for a task.
Add that to an already problematic high consumption of RAM, due to very high object counts, from collideable trees, new and more objects to make the maps look more alive and detailed, and you have a perfect storm (more so in MP).

Latest GPUs like RTX3070 and 3070Ti have 8GB of VRAM, and I wouldn't call them slow or "bottleneck" type by any means. ...would you?
IIRC, there have been users with RTX3090 24GB noticing over 14GB(!!) of VRAM being used in MP (in Syria and The Channel, mostly), the game will simply consume whatever resources if given the chance. Which means then that pretty much any other Nvidia GPU (what DCS prefers, ironically) will feel the issue at some point, as the next tier below the RTX3090 is the RTX3080Ti (12GB) and RTX3080 (10GB). And your older GTX1080Ti with 11GB is also not safe from the issue.

And, again, it goes to what I mention in previous post here. 
If at some point the struggle with VRAM management happens in DCS (mostly in MP), as it becomes saturated and automatically offsetting to RAM, it too already highly used by the game, and realizing that you can not add VRAM to the GPU but you can add RAM capacity to the system, then it is a better choice (but also more expensive) to get 64GB instead of 32GB for RAM to mitigate possible issues.
 

12 hours ago, Thinder said:

15 hours ago, LucShep said:

Next, the latency (think of it as the response time of memory). 
This can be even more important than speed for a very intensive sim/game like DCS

It is the most important simply because it removes the bottlenecks existing and the gain is substential with a 5600X, I should know, I upgraded from a Cl16 kit, right now, I have a 9.52% GPU bottleneck with a 1080Ti, a 3080 would only reduce it to 3.47%, so I know I have some margin, that's what this 32BG RAM bounded to a 5600X kit does.

What bottlenecks? 
Intel is not as sensible to RAM CAS latency as AMD Ryzen, it never was. 
Actually, even 3000 CL15, 3200 CL16 and 3600 CL18 will be fine with any Intel platform from 6th gen to latest one (yes, including 12th gen!), there is no bottleneck with those, it's just that the B-die kits perform a little better (at higher cost) due to even tighter timings. 

Recommentation right now for 12th gen is premium DDR4 (lowest latency dual-rank Samsung B-die modules) simply because it's the best alternative for those indecisive about DDR5 but with the budget for it (and facing its very low availability - long waiting lists for DDR5).

I know, I know.... you're going to say next that even Intel had previously used B-die in their DDR4 data/benchmarks, so that's what one must use too (for DDR4)...
And on that subject, they did exactly that to have parity, to have "apples to apples" comparisons with the same B-die RAM (stock XMP/DOCP or otherwise tweaked) timings that the competition (AMD) uses, due to preference of Ryzen systems. 
It just makes no sense for Intel to showcase processors using budget memory when the competition uses premium memory.
That's why they do it. It is not because it "needs" B-die for performance.
 

12 hours ago, Thinder said:

I built my system as a mid-range and I'm not even looking for 90FPS (like some) performance that's for a start, second, you might want to get this sort of performance by splashing above £500 to gain what? 20FPS?

As I said, I don't think an optimized system with 32GB of Cl14 B.Die bounded to a 5600X will fare that bad even in DCS Multiplayer and looking at what I get out of my system testing it at 4K X 2 MSAA I don't expect to run into trouble with FPS once I will have upgraded my GPU, most probably to a 3080Ti...

...why does it have always to go to unrelated speculations (actually useless) around your particular AMD Ryzen mid-range system, when the matter is an Intel based system, and quite higher spec than yours? 
...why does it always have to look like you take every thread as a chance to brag about your specs and system choices? 

Can you please stop posting about it in every single thread (bound this and bound that, Gskill email this, dual rank that), pretty please?
...It's really, really tiresome to read all the same things on and on....

If you haven't noticed, it just complicates and confuses even more the users who are asking for advice.
 

Edited November 17, 2021 by LucShep

[Ged33]

12 hours ago, Bossco82 said:

Hi Ged,

Just a question to help suggest parts. Where are you in the world. I'm in the UK so any suggestions I made would be based on what I see in stock here.

I live in Kent in the uk mate and just for info I only play multiplayer and always in VR. I have a pretty good system now so im not panicking I just wanted the best system money could buy specifically for DCS. I have done weeks of research but just keep going around in circles remember this will be my first build.

I thought if I asked on here with it being the DCS forum that I would maybe get an answer. I am very grateful for the advice I have had from all of you thank you 

I serpose at least I know all the other bits to get its just the ram now.

[BitMaster]

It's actually pretty simple:

Either get a FAST recent Intel or AMD that fits your bill. 12700k and 5900X where my choices, I went AMD a month ago since I dont trust Z690 yet ( very personal thing )

Get a decent board, some like the real fancy ones, some like it not so overloaded with features but cheaper. That is maybe the hardest pick to do.

Likely you will end up in the 275-400€ corner where most solid boards are advertised, you have ample choices there. Asus has the best Bios but MSI or Gigabyte are also very capable, each one has drawbacks and even if it is the price only.  Among the best ones usually are Asus Hero series , Gigabyte Master series. I would not overload the board with features and stuff like the 800€+ boards have. The CPU has a limited amount of lanes and PCI bridges add complexity, cost and Bios complications. If you dont need the features listed, dont buy it.                                                                 

If you go Intel 12thgen you also need to decide DDR4 or 5. DDR5 does not really show what it can deliver with those specs yet. Once far beyond 10k MHz DDR5 becomes relevant, not before, dont fall for the advertising, read the numbers..and the price tag..and availability. This all goes contra DDR5 as of now. No doubt, DDR5 will rock our socks off...in late '22 or early '23. For now, it's hard to beat a DDR4 3200 CL14 or 3600 CL16 kit in price/performance ratio, for AMD this counts even more. Get 64GB right away.

Get 1, better 2, PCIe v4 NVMe drives, Samsung 980 Pro 1TB if you want a simple answer. I just did that as well, my DCS is 300+GB meanwhile.

Get a decent PSU, 850W-1kW is reasonable again. Platinum grade efficiency is desired as it also usually comes with 10-12y warranty, much better components used, clean currents without noise and ripple that stresses/destroys your components over time much more than the better PSUs do. Dont cut corners on the PSU. Seasonic PX-850 or 1000 is among the best you can buy for money, the TX1000 being the top tier Titanium grade with even better scores but the Seasonic Prime PX is really good, no need for another 80€+ for the TX unless you want the best of the best.

Get a case with good airflow, if you aircool you will pump 350-450w of heat into the system while gaming. Consider that. I would at least get an AIO for the CPU, 280 or larger.

 

GPU... as much as you can afford and what's available. Very simple. Here in Germany, 3080ti sells for roughly a notch below 2k€, a 6900XT a little less and the first really usefull card is still above 1k€, absolut insane. You have to make this up with yourself how much you can pay and how far you are willing to play this absurd GPU game. I know I am lucky to still have this 1080ti...heck...if it dies I am screwed  LoL.

 

As long as you get one of the fastest CPU's, at least 32GB, 1 or 2 SSDs and a fast GPU you are all set. Just match your desired resolution & LOD with your GPU, if you misjudge that relationship you will have a nasty surprise in your fps counter.

[Ged33]

OK what's better 4 x 16 GB sticks or 2 x 32 GB?

Edited November 17, 2021 by Ged33

[Bossco82]

Hi Ged,

Kent's a nice part of the world my Uncle lived there just outside Maidstone. Back to the point. Well you want 64gb for sure, personally I would go for 4x16gb. I don't think there will be a performance benefit either way really because its Intel. I have used all 4 slots for Dram since I had a windowed case on show, I like the way it looks. Thats it really.

Are you going to Overclockers, Scan UK or CCL for your bits. Or is it a case of whoever has it in stock?

[Ged33]

Ok thanks. Yes all of the above. I did a bit more digging and from what I can tell the best Z690 DDR4 MOBO at the moment is ASUS ROG Strix Z690-A Gaming WiFi D4 so I have just this minute ordered one from CCL. also ordered the PX100 PSU from Scan. im still looking at the 360 coolers and of course the ram. I haven't even looked at cases yet but I think I can handle that one lol

[Bossco82]

HI Ged,

Knowing your in the UK. Don't stress too much about finding a G.Skill kit. I have one it was 2nd hand on eBay and cost as much as a new one. I am not joking I searched for a couple of months, if Ebuyer, CCL or Amazon dont have it, I would not know where to look really. Scan only sell Corsair they have a few 3600mhz C16 kits.

The Corsair AIO's are very solid units, they just have a piece of software to run the rgb and fans. No big deal really. I dont know if Asus do one if they do it'll be expensive.

[Thinder]

23 hours ago, LucShep said:

It is that way, the problem has been discussed with some data to back it up (but has been simply dismissed). See the threads pointed below if curious.

And if even users who do take care of their systems have troubles, then it is NOT an assumption at all.

The reality is that E.D. and 3rd parties have decided on absurd texture sizes for everything, including less important objects, while at the same time there is a visible struggle with
 

They also provide with ways to set up texture size used by players.

Quote

Latest GPUs like RTX3070 and 3070Ti have 8GB of VRAM, and I wouldn't call them slow or "bottleneck" type by any means. ...would you?

If you expect 8GB of VRAM to be on par with 32GB you're delusioned, as simple as that, that's a bottleneck and the 3070 is certainly not one GPU I would chose for an upgrade from my 1080Ti.

Quote

What bottlenecks? 

YES those GPU are 7.32% GPU bootleneck with a 5600X. Got it? 32GB of Cl14 B.Die make this CPU faster, this GPU would slow down the whole system in both case, UNDER LOAD, when DCS RAM and VRAM demands picks.

So basically without any evidence that the RAM capacity is to blame for the issue, or to what precise extend, although doubling it would alleviate it by default somehow, you imply that those 8GB GPU are not the issue when in fact thay already are with an humble Ryzen 5 5600X, are you kidding me?

How do you expect the RAM not to saturate when your GPU will be limited by its own VRAM capacity and the whole system made slower because it IS the bootleneck?

That's WHY the majority of those issues are GPU related so unless you guys really figure it out in a more serious fashion, you won't persuade me to splash an extra £500 in RAM when an  underperforming GPU is causing a lot more of those issues, I know where my priorities lies and it's not on doubling the RAM capacity without solving the problem.

 

Quote

Intel is not as sensible to RAM CAS latency as AMD Ryzen, it never was. 

The O.S doesn't restitute RAM and there are a LOT of issues with Windows 10 (don't know about Windows 11 but it certainly didn't cure the mediocrity of memory management).

There are people working on those issues and I don't believe your bunch have been looking hard enough into them for a starter, then coming up with a 3070 8GB GPU as example is plain funny, it does nothing for the credibility of this rhetoric which is looking at the game first and not at the O.S and players settings.

You mentioned stuttering, did you guys sort out your RAM cache? There are plenty of very simple trick to make a system a lot more responsive and RAM efficient than just the basic I already quoted, only it takes time and trial to figure which one work and not especially if you're looking at the level of details quoted in those debate.

I don't know if you understand how the RAM affects the Ryzens and how low latency have been used from a generation to the other, the FACT that the 5000 series make better use of low latency is a plus, not a minus, it was used previously to O.C the RAM because those kits are B.Die and could reach 3200MHz with those CPUs, not to take advantage of lower latency.

My Ryzen 5600X was already 21% faster than the 3600X it replaced with Cl16 RAM, the Cl14 kit made it 6.04% faster than it was with the Cl16, and the GPU 1.44% faster UNDER LOAD at 4K 2 X MSAA.

Here are two examples sreenshots taken within a couple of mn from each other, the cache fills up real fast, I saw up to 8GB of cache files before I applied this fix, it never was even looked at by Microsoft, it slows down the whole system and causes stuttering. How many of you have it sorted? Mine empties itself every 5mn with task scheduler, don't look on yours, you haven't got the fix from stock O.S and updates.

So as I said, you want gaming P.Cs to tackle the most demanding game, you'd better start by doing your homework and sort your O.S memory management and system Latency properly because if you haven't you have no valid basis on which to rely for comparison and so far I havent seen anyone coming up with this most basic infos.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Thinder

[LucShep]

2 hours ago, Thinder said:

They also provide with ways to set up texture size used by players.

If you expect 8GB of VRAM to be on par with 32GB you're delusioned, as simple as that, that's a bottleneck and the 3070 is certainly not one GPU I would chose for an upgrade from my 1080Ti.

YES those GPU are 7.32% GPU bootleneck with a 5600X. Got it? 32GB of Cl14 B.Die make this CPU faster, this GPU would slow down the whole system in both case, UNDER LOAD, when DCS RAM and VRAM demands picks.

So basically without any evidence that the RAM capacity is to blame for the issue, or to what precise extend, although doubling it would alleviate it by default somehow, you imply that those 8GB GPU are not the issue when in fact thay already are with an humble Ryzen 5 5600X, are you kidding me?

How do you expect the RAM not to saturate when your GPU will be limited by its own VRAM capacity and the whole system made slower because it IS the bootleneck?

That's WHY the majority of those issues are GPU related so unless you guys really figure it out in a more serious fashion, you won't persuade me to splash an extra £500 in RAM when an  underperforming GPU is causing a lot more of those issues, I know where my priorities lies and it's not on doubling the RAM capacity without solving the problem.

 

The O.S doesn't restitute RAM and there are a LOT of issues with Windows 10 (don't know about Windows 11 but it certainly didn't cure the mediocrity of memory management).

There are people working on those issues and I don't believe your bunch have been looking hard enough into them for a starter, then coming up with a 3070 8GB GPU as example is plain funny, it does nothing for the credibility of this rhetoric which is looking at the game first and not at the O.S and players settings.

You mentioned stuttering, did you guys sort out your RAM cache? There are plenty of very simple trick to make a system a lot more responsive and RAM efficient than just the basic I already quoted, only it takes time and trial to figure which one work and not especially if you're looking at the level of details quoted in those debate.

I don't know if you understand how the RAM affects the Ryzens and how low latency have been used from a generation to the other, the FACT that the 5000 series make better use of low latency is a plus, not a minus, it was used previously to O.C the RAM because those kits are B.Die and could reach 3200MHz with those CPUs, not to take advantage of lower latency.

My Ryzen 5600X was already 21% faster than the 3600X it replaced with Cl16 RAM, the Cl14 kit made it 6.04 faster than it was with the Cl16, and the GPU 1.44% faster UNDER LOAD.

Here are two examples sreenshots taken within a couple of mn from each other, the cache fills up real fast, I saw up to 8GB of cache files before I applied this fix, it never was even looked at by Microsoft, it slows down the whole system and causes stuttering. How many of you have it sorted? Mine empties itself every 5mn with task scheduler, don't look on yours, you haven't got the fix from stock O.S and updates.

So as I said, you want gaming P.Cs to tackle the most demanding game, you'd better start by doing your homework and sort your O.S memory management and system Latency properly because if you haven't you have no valid basis on which to rely for comparison and so far I havent seen anyone coming up with this most basic infos.

 

If you found something that is 100% sure of curing part of the problems like you say, then consider creating a step-by-step guide and share with other fellow users here on the forums by opening a dedicated thread, meant for everyone, including the tech iliterate users. Otherwise, you're just going to look like someone pretending to flex some smarts, and none of that will be of any relevance, even if it worked, for the regular user or even an advanced one skilled in IT for that matter.

At the end of the day, the point of it all is something like this....  you do not buy a car and be asked to be a mechanic. That's just not how it works.

For a sim/game that basis itself on contant progress in a platform (and, it seems, has assets (and spagheti code?) going 20 years back) that shows more and more performance issues with every new version, and is this expensive, it's beyond unreal to ask from a user to go to such lenghts, when no other game in the market today seems to be as demanding as this is, or shows this kind of problems in the current day and age.

It sucks to be forced to have a well above average PC just to enjoy this sim/game any decently (mid-range system being the bare minimum), but that is the reality, and right now that is the only solution to fight/contradict DCS's limitations and performance issues.
It's not about own system maintenance or tricks. And it's not about perfectly capable GPUs that only in this abnormally demanding sim/game show such limitations.

Edited November 18, 2021 by LucShep

[Thinder]

2 hours ago, LucShep said:

If you found something that is 100% sure of curing part of the problems like you say, then consider creating a step-by-step guide and share with other fellow users here on the forums by opening a dedicated thread, meant for everyone, including the tech iliterate users. Otherwise, you're just going to look like someone pretending to flex some smarts, and none of that will be of any relevance, even if it worked, for the regular user or even an advanced one skilled in IT for that matter.

To be honnest I'm not bothered with the way I look in forums, I don't take them for pagents and go "and world peace", I already have treated the subject of system optimization several time over and you're yet another example of the sort of reaction I get from mentioning those facts. Players don't take this subject seriously.

The reason I put an emphasis on this is because as I already stated, I built a mid-range system and I don't expect to beat records with it, but once again, without getting rid of all bottlenecks, you just can't point fingers at the game as being responsible for all those issues.

Best example is mentioning lack of RAM capacity when in fact this RAM kit removed the bottleneck and improved performances under load and the GPU you mentioned would do the opposite under the same amount of load, like mine because they are simply not up to the task.

It's pretty simple: The CPU don't store data, that's the job of the RAM, if the GPU can't recycle it fast enough, the data stored in the RAM will have to wait before the CPU can process it anyway, so it will end up with more than necessary to store and still will not be the source of the issue, doubling the capacity will only alleviate it, not sort it out.

 

Quote

At the end of the day, the point of it all is something like this....  you do not buy a car and be asked to be a mechanic. That's just not how it works.

I don't own a car license, I drove bikes since 1975 and you'd better knew how to do an oil change at the time, check your tire pressure, chain tension and the rest of it, it's a culture, like PC gaming is a culture, a visit on an AMD, MSI or Intel forum will tell you a lot about it, if people want to build gaming PC, they NEED to learn about them and it starts with the O.S, meaning all the crap Microsoft have thrown at us with Windows 10 and probably 11.

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For a sim/game that basis itself on contant progress in a platform (and, it seems, has assets (and spagheti code?) going 20 years back) that shows more and more performance issues with every new version, and is this expensive, it's beyond unreal to ask from a user to go to such lenghts, when no other game in the market today seems to be as demanding as this is, or shows this kind of problems in the current day and age.

Hang on a minut, I'm not a techie OK? So I had to go through a lot of home work and research only to figure which RAM kit would work well with my 5600X especially because this particular kit is not even listed as supported by my MSI motherboard.

People build P.Cs for gaming like building racing cars but according to you it's too much asking them to learn about the basics?

 

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It sucks to be forced to have a well above average PC just to enjoy this sim/game any decently (mid-range system being the bare minimum), but that is the reality, and right now that is the only solution to fight/contradict DCS's limitations and performance issues.
It's not about own system maintenance or tricks. And it's not about perfectly capable GPUs that only in this abnormally demanding sim/game show such limitations.

I wouldn't qualify a 8GB GPU as perfectly capable, especially after owning a 1080Ti even if the GPU in question is faster, I perfecly understand the importance of having more VRAM to tackle a game such as DCS, reason why I am planning to upgrade to at least a 12GB GDDR6X 3080Ti, which btw will still be the bottleneck when bounded to my 5600X.

The point I am making here is that without having optimized your OS, reduced all bottlenecks to at least below 3%, you won't know for sure if you lack RAM capacity simply because your RAM will be affected by the performances of your GPU, while a simple 32GB of 3200MHz Cl14 B.Die make it work 1.33% faster under heavy load at 4K 2 X MSAA.

I appreciate the work done by all those who have tried to figure what the game issues are, not saying there aren't any, but there have been no procedure starting by reducing system RAM management issues and latency so far, so we still are very much in the dark as to which is the problem appart for the facts I mentioned about those RAM kit effects on the systems.

And something else, when talking about culture, people post their system stats with RAM capacity or frequencies, never RAM type (number of ranks, Chips material etc) or latency, which mean that those players are mislead to think that those are the specs that matter most and when posting them, deny people like myself of the most important information to figure out what their real problems are.

So one can conduct tests, using benches or DCS all they want, we don't know if their system is really up to the task, that's one reason why I don't give too much attention to those topics, I'm aware but not overly concerned, instead I focuse on getting the informations I need to optimize my system, starting by the O.S and it's not an aquired taste.

It's pretty much the same with Youtube Videos comparing this and that, if you don't have all the specs in hand they are useless appart for the owner of the channel which makes dosh from them, it's everyone home work and fact checking, contacting manufaturers support and asking questions in relevant forums which makes the difference.

So As I said, before even thinking of spending this sort of money on another RAM kit I'll upgrade my GPU with reducing the bottleneck to a minimum in mind, then only I will be able to make a full and precise assessment on to which level of performances I really get from my RAM kit, for the time being it is it which reduces bottlenecks.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Thinder

[Bossco82]

Ok guys,

Ged was having trouble choosing some DDR4 and I am pretty sure this is just confusing him to be honest. Hes in the UK stocks are low for everything as we know. He wants 64gb of DDR4 to play multiplayer in VR. I cant find a G.Skill Samsung B-die kit unless its silly money. Considering hes going to be shopping from Overclockers UK, Scan UK and CCL UK. Which should he go for. The best I could find at a sensible price were 2x16gb 3600Mhz C16 kits from Corsair, I think something like this will be fine, thoughts? 

Thinder if you ever have the time to write a step by step guide how you optimised your system for DCS I would find that interesting. I struggle to fully understand it when its part of a debate. 

Lucshep is correct that DCS is a total headache when it comes to performance. I could halve the power of my system and still play my entire steam folder at high/ultra settings. However nothing offers the realism in comparison to DCS. 

Ged if you do get this system put together I would really like to hear how it performs in DCS as I would find a 12600k with my own DDR4 a tempting option in the new year.

Adding anymore here is just going to bloat the thread, best of luck Ged.

[BitMaster]

People with a 3090 and VR state in here that they have seen DCS having 32-40GB RAM usage on heavy MP servers.

Any questions ?

 

I would maybe not buy 64GB if I already had 32GB, I actually havent for my last system, I kept the 32GB but when you buy new you really should consider 64GB. Not saying it's a must but if you own a fat GPU with max VRAM you can buy, big fat CPU, NVMe all over the place, what holds you back getting also more RAM if ´certain scenarios alrerady show usage well above 32GB.

In addition, it has been mentioned in one of the recent threads that Vulkan will benefit from 64GB. IIRC it was a dev/tester being referred to.

[LucShep]

 

I fully agree with BitMaster.

Just get the 64GB if you're building this system from scratch, especially if with high specs (12th gen Intel "K" and RTX3090) and for the purpose that this is aimed for (DCS, and Multiplayer with VR).

 

6 hours ago, Bossco82 said:

Ok guys,

Ged was having trouble choosing some DDR4 and I am pretty sure this is just confusing him to be honest. Hes in the UK stocks are low for everything as we know. He wants 64gb of DDR4 to play multiplayer in VR. I cant find a G.Skill Samsung B-die kit unless its silly money. Considering hes going to be shopping from Overclockers UK, Scan UK and CCL UK. Which should he go for. The best I could find at a sensible price were 2x16gb 3600Mhz C16 kits from Corsair, I think something like this will be fine, thoughts? 

Any DDR4 RAM kit with listed specific specs of 3200Mhz CL 14-14-14-34 and 3600Mhz CL 16-16-16-36 (speed and CAS timings, respectively) will be B-die, 99,9% sure.

AFAIK, the only RAM brand that produces 64GB kits of B-die is GSkill (Flare-X, RipJaws-V and Trident-Z, those with the mentioned timings), some I've listed a few posts back. 
Prices will vary, also depending if its RGB (bling-bling lighting) or not, fancy PCB or simpler ones (Flare-X is the least expensive of the whole group because of that). 
I don't know any others.

That's the premium low-latency RAM that everyone wants for high-performance AMD Ryzen and now Intel 12th gen DDR4 motherboards as well.
And that's why they're expensive (they're among the very best afterall).
Was just talking to a friend here that works in computer shop and tells me that the shortage of DDR5 (for Intel 12th gen) is creating huge demand for these DDR4 B-die kits now, and same for the Z690 DDR4 motherboards.... 

You will have a hard time finding those kits in Scan.uk and Overclockers.uk, because that's probably where everyboby looks first if in UK territory. 

I'd suggest looking at Newegg (USA), Amazon (UK) and MemoryC (Worldwide), simply because their inventory is usually much larger, and even if that RAM comes overseas it may be worth the shipping costs (within the reasonable, of course).
And there may be some other places in Europe with it widely available and able to ship it. EBAY may be another alternative as well if nothing else works (?).

For example, these:

• https://www.memoryc.com/20272-64gb-g-skill-ddr4-trident-z-3200mhz-pc4-25600-cl14-14-14-14-34-1-35v-quad-channel-kit-4x16gb.html
   
• https://www.newegg.com/global/uk-en/g-skill-64gb-288-pin-ddr4-sdram/p/N82E16820232900?Description=gskill F4-3200C14Q-64G&cm_re=gskill_F4-3200C14Q-64G-_-20-232-900-_-Product&quicklink=true
   
• https://www.newegg.com/global/uk-en/g-skill-64gb-288-pin-ddr4-sdram/p/N82E16820232914?Description=F4-3600C16Q-64&cm_re=F4-3600C16Q-64-_-20-232-914-_-Product&quicklink=true
   
• https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gskill-F4-3200-°C14Q-64GTZR-D4-3200-64GB-C14-Triz/dp/B072HJ6DHH?th=1

 

I'll probably post these links and the products become out of stock... (let's hope not)

Edited November 18, 2021 by LucShep
posted links for RAM

[Thinder]

4 hours ago, Bossco82 said:

The best I could find at a sensible price were 2x16gb 3600Mhz C16 kits from Corsair, I think something like this will be fine, thoughts? 

Thinder if you ever have the time to write a step by step guide how you optimised your system for DCS I would find that interesting. I struggle to fully understand it when its part of a debate.

The Corsair vengeance kits seems to be popular among Intel users, but B.Die will always come with a premium so 32GB will be costly, I personally would go for a 4 X 8 GB kit to make sure it uses interleaving.

I procured my RAM from Newegg

https://www.newegg.com/global/uk-en/

G.SKILL TridentZ RGB Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 3200 (PC4 25600) Desktop Memory Model F4-3200C14D-32GTZR £218.39

>>>

I'm far from finished with my own system, since it'strial and error, looking for the infos, installing the apps when applying, doing into registry editor, comparing results etc, IF I come up with something like this it is not going to be before some time.

Then there is the issue of players having upgraded to Windows 11, I haven't and am not planning to, more  to it those issues took a lot of time for the most advanced users to sort out in Windows 10 and Microsoft was engaged in some form of struggle to make sure people didn't take and keep control of their O.S, I saw that with the number of updates they released which reversed the progresses made with Windows memory management, including reversing all settings, reinstalling all background Apps etc.

So at the moment I'm just going step by step but making sure I severed the link with Microsoft so those updates and triggers doesn't find their way in my system.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Thinder

[Ged33]

Thanks very much for the links and advice much appreciated but I still have a couple of questions (Sorry) are you saying that 3200 or 3600 cl14 is better than say 4400 cl19 for my system? if so why? is it just to with it being B.Die I thought that was just an AMD thing? help

And if I get 64gb does the whole 64gb have to be from one packet (matched) or can I buy 2 lots of 32gb same make and specs  to make up the 64gb?

6 hours ago, Bossco82 said:

 

Ged if you do get this system put together I would really like to hear how it performs in DCS as I would find a 12600k with my own DDR4 a tempting option in the new year.

 

I can try to tell you how it performs but I haven't got anything to compare it to apart from my current system.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Ged33

[LucShep]

 

14 hours ago, Ged33 said:

 are you saying that 3200 or 3600 cl14 is better than say 4400 cl19 for my system? if so why? is it just to with it being B.Die I thought that was just an AMD thing? help
 

Yes, they are better. Also with Intel 12th gen (not just with AMD Ryzen).

The 3200 CL14 and 3600 CL16 kits of RAM have the benefit of keeping the CPU memory controller in "Gear 1" mode for better frequency operation (better!).
The 4400 CL19 kits of RAM need "Gear 2" to provide stability at higher memory clocks by clocking down the command bus and memory controller .

Also, they have lower latency, tighter timings, which kinda offsets the speed difference.

3200 CL14 (B-die) is 14-14-14-34
3600 CL16 (B-die) is 16-16-16-36
4400 CL19 are usually 19-26-26-46

You want those latency timings as lowest and as tight as possible (of course, balanced with good speed). Especially with a very intensive and demanding sim/game as DCS is, even more so in Multiplayer, it can make a difference with Intel 12th gen, also because of using the memory controller in "Gear 1".

It's not like a more regular, less expensive kit of DDR4 RAM (3200 CL16, 3600 CL18, etc) isn't good enough - it will actualy work just fine ("Gear 1") and even overclock ok too. 
The thing is, if cost is no issue and you want the best performance possible, you get B-die RAM.

The B-die modules are the very best at low latency, very tight timings, super compatible with everything (AMD or Intel), and why we're recommending you those kits.
They're awesome already in stock form, from factory. The cherry on top of the cake is their capability for anyone ever getting interest in tweaking and overclocking RAM (they can do 3600Mhz 14-15-15-35 timings, or better).
It's like the equivalent of Intel "K" processors in the RAM world. That's why they're the enthusiast's favorite, but pricey compared to more regular DDR4.
They're still so good that they make DDR5 actually look bad in the picture.

I suggest for you to have a read (even if not technically really into it), these guys tested Intel 12th gen with DDR5 vs DDR4 kits of different speeds and latency timings:

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/intel-core-i9-12900k-alder-lake-ddr4-vs-ddr5/

https://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/luke-hill/ddr4-vs-ddr5-intel-core-i9-12900k-testing/
 

14 hours ago, Ged33 said:

And if I get 64gb does the whole 64gb have to be from one packet (matched) or can I buy 2 lots of 32gb same make and specs  to make up the 64gb?
 

Oh, you'll want 64GB. Trust me, if not now it'll be so in a year or less, so rather just do it right away while you're at it.

It's better to get the one 64GB kit instead of two separate kits of 32GB, even if they're equal, simply because there is some chance (very rare, but it does happen) of having diferent components involved in two separate kits of 32GB of same model.
If you get the short end of the stick (bad luck) you can get conflicts between those modules, resulting in system crashes and instability, BSODs, etc. The kit you buy is guaranteed to work with its own included modules, for best compatibility.

That's why it's usually recommended to buy RAM in excess, and all the number of modules at once from a single kit - so that you don't get a bad result in the lotery of RAM if buying separately later (each to its own, I guess).

Yes, the downside is that it's very costly, as you've noticed. But it's kinda justified in your case for what you're trying to achieve.
 ...it's actually less expensive than DDR5, did you notice?

Non related, and to end, but this might come handy - general "unwritten rule" for a kit with 4 sticks of RAM is to up their voltage, just a little (about 0.05v, so, from 1.35v to 1.40v).
It's perfectly safe, do not worry (it can actually take a lot more), as sometimes they're a bit cranky and just want a little more juice than what the XMP profile places (what they put in the box from factory).

Edited November 19, 2021 by LucShep
added links for couple of articles

[Ged33]

LucShep   Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this to me I think I actually understand it now  ( Hopefully )

So this would be the ultimate ram? https://www.gskill.com/product/165/362/1623033752/F4-3600C14Q-64GTEGA  Thanks again

Edited November 19, 2021 by Ged33

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, Ged33 said:

LucShep   Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this to me I think I actually understand it now  ( Hopefully )

So this would be the ultimate ram? https://www.gskill.com/product/165/362/1623033752/F4-3600C14Q-64GTEGA  Thanks again

 

I'm glad if any of that helps, building a new high-end computer is always a great experience.  

If that's what you really want, Trident Z Royal Elite (and that kit) are, pretty much, the ultimate DDR4 (the "crème de la crème"), yes.

If you see that with good comparable price, go for it.
But, and IMHO, seeing that they usually are double the price (+/-) of what we already recommended, I'm not so sure I'd go that far.

Think of it more as jewelry and benchmark/O.C. records chasing hardware, not really something that will make a "WOW" difference of any sort in any game over the 3200 C14 or 3600 C16 (B-die) kits mentioned before (which are really good RAM already).

Edited November 19, 2021 by LucShep

[TAW_Impalor]

2 hours ago, Ged33 said:

LucShep   Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this to me I think I actually understand it now  ( Hopefully )

So this would be the ultimate ram? https://www.gskill.com/product/165/362/1623033752/F4-3600C14Q-64GTEGA  Thanks again

 

If you don't care about rgb, you can find cheaper Ripjaws with same timings here: https://benzhaomin.github.io/bdiefinder/