Business model for Lock On future

[Mizzy]

Carl Norman stated:

 

"Software is a strange beast because in the true sense of what Economies of Scales means software "production costs" are fixed regardless of the number of units "produced". Software is more like a hollywood movie than a widget.

 

Combat simulations are a stranger beast yet, they are very specialized and require more work and more testing. They also appeal to a smaller audience. For these reasons alone they really need to be marketed, distributed, and priced differently than the mainstream entertainment products being sold at retail. For all the reasons stated above they have been abandoned by the large publishers. For games like Lock On to thrive they will require a new business model and change in thinking by both developer/publisher and the interested consumer.

 

Carl"

 

The quicker Hi fidelity flight sims disassociates itself with the mainstream retail games market, the more we shall see the true genre of flight sims take off (eh em :))

 

Put simple, Flight sims are not really games, they are entertainment sure but not quite games, its more of a hobby to most of use and quite frankly, this is the CHEAPEST hobby I have had buying Lock On and IL2 etc.

 

$35 is therefore NOTHING to pay for the amount of time spent playing (well you know what I mean)!

 

I trully believe that in the future, ED will market to a small number of hardcore simmers at a price that reflects the development of the product and it is as simple as that, but in the meantime Hi fidelity flight sims MUST divorce itself from mainstream game publishers and its pricing policy.

 

I did notce Carl using an economic tern rather wrongly ;)

 

Regards

 

Mizzy

 

Unfortunately SimHq tend to lock threads rather quickly without too much thought these days, therefore I presented this post here under my name Mizzy.

[Guest Dlink]

Re: Business model for Lock On future

 

Carl Norman stated:

 

 

Unfortunately SimHq tend to lock threads rather quickly without too much thought these days, therefore I presented this post here under my name Mizzy.

 

Actually Mizzy, Simhq didn't lock that per se, I asked them to lock it because alot of people were getting upset that I even dared to asked the question that I did. I don't think if I hadn't asked they would have locked it.

[AJS]

ED could give away licenses and tools for Lock On Addons. I mean like officially approved 3rd party addons with profit sharing. I think that would be fair since the devs did the main work.

 

I would pay for quality aircrafts designed for a quality engine. Not like this FS2004 rip off stuff.

 

First project should be a Tornado :P

[britgliderpilot]

First project should be a Tornado :P

 

Problem - no A2G radar in Lomac.

 

Someone's working on a Jaguar model, though - there are a couple of screenies from ED, who actually imported it into the v1.1 engine. No cockpit or FM, but they imported the model.

 

 

Two things bother me about 3rd party mods . . . . the first is quality control. Big problem. Allow 3rd party mods, and before you know it there'll be an X-Wing on your six . . . . :roll:

 

The second thing is whether it's sensible to allow 3rd party mods from a business point of view. As long as ED maintains a monopoly on new addons, they can make money from them . . . .

 

 

Personally, I think it's a better idea to have everything going through ED. People can submit all kinds of information to them if they have it, and 3d models . . . . but leave the final decisions and implementation to ED. Best way, IMO.

[Sardukar]

I disagree quite heavilly with u there. I think ED should release some dev tools to allow us to edit terrain, scenery, textures/models, and possibly even let us try to add our own planes.

 

There are ALOT of talented people out there with alot of time on their hands that could work together to put new planes into the game at the same quality that ED does it.

 

And after all, it would come down to the player what mods they install into the game. So if they really want an x-wing, they can have an x-wing (somehow i doubt itd ever happen, be fun though :P )

[GGTharos]

No, actually you're wrong here. It would just open up the game to some rather terrible cheats. I really would rather not see people flying F-22's and MiG1.44's on my server :P

[Mizzy]

Re: Business model for Lock On future

 

 

Actually Mizzy, Simhq didn't lock that per se, I asked them to lock it because alot of people were getting upset that I even dared to asked the question that I did. I don't think if I hadn't asked they would have locked it.

 

Your philosophy Sir does not compute and my general comment (nay observation) irrelevant to just your posts ;) Candidly speaking I did not actually read your thread or your comments. I was more interested in the comment from Stormin and thus my post was directed to only that ;)

 

Sorry but your comments were not important to me.

 

Mizzy

[Guest Dlink]

Re: Business model for Lock On future

 

 

Actually Mizzy, Simhq didn't lock that per se, I asked them to lock it because alot of people were getting upset that I even dared to asked the question that I did. I don't think if I hadn't asked they would have locked it.

 

Your philosophy Sir does not compute and my general comment (nay observation) irrelevant to just your posts ;) Candidly speaking I did not actually read your thread or your comments. I was more interested in the comment from Stormin and thus my post was directed to only that ;)

 

Sorry but your comments were not important to me.

 

Mizzy

 

That is quite the liddle tude you have there.

[Mizzy]

The attitude is all yours sir :)

 

Mizzy

[SUBS17]

The reality is that eventually they may have to go to a similar set up to the subscription type games such as everquest or final fantasy. That way ed makes more money and can make their own imporvements/mods and addons and all the profits go back into their pockets. 3rd party is a bad idea as it takes away the profits from ed and we may also end up in a situation like F4 with addons everywhere but no true direction. Thus every set up is different which I believe is the wrong approach for addons. We are also less likely to get cheats and hacked versions if a 3rd party is not involved.

[Guest Dlink]

The reality is that eventually they may have to go to a similar set up to the subscription type games such as everquest or final fantasy. That way ed makes more money and can make their own imporvements/mods and addons and all the profits go back into their pockets. 3rd party is a bad idea as it takes away the profits from ed and we may also end up in a situation like F4 with addons everywhere but no true direction. Thus every set up is different which I believe is the wrong approach for addons. We are also less likely to get cheats and hacked versions if a 3rd party is not involved.

 

Well in all the games that I have been involved in over the years. That has never happened.

 

OFP came close, but it is up to the server admin to make sure that the crc checking is turned on. Solves that problem for the most part....PLUS these type of game you tend to only play with online buddies.

[Mizzy]

Actually Dlink,

 

On second reading of my post, seems that i did come accross with a bit of attitude so my apologies.

 

Mizzy.

[olaleier]

This discussion has been done a few times (not saying it doesn't deserve doing again of course) and my conclusion is:

 

Profits for the developer is what counts. They need to get paid.

 

But "appealing to the hardcore" should NOT also mean "scaring potential newcomers away".

 

If $35 pr copy can keep ED going, that's fine. I'm sure they didn't pull that pricetag out of thin air.

[AnzacPT]

the 35$ figure was problably reached by what also 1C thinks it´s reasonable for the CIS market...

 

and i hope that doesn´t work bad for ED...

 

i was kinda hoping they could follow a strategy like:

 

xyz dollars per copy X numbers of copies they predict they are going to sell = amount necessary to cover development costs, etc...

 

on the english forum there were only 140 so votes... so i hope there are previsions of several thousands for the CIS market...

 

because even 500 copies won´t cut it for ED...

[Starlight]

Two things bother me about 3rd party mods . . . . the first is quality control. Big problem. Allow 3rd party mods, and before you know it there'll be an X-Wing on your six . . . . :roll:

 

I think it's time to change this way of thinking. Falcon 4 and Strike Fighters for example allow a lot of 3rd party mods/addons (in different ways, but still they do it). Well there is no X-wing in any of these sims, instead there are plenty of flyable aircraft and 3D models, some with lower quality, but also some wonderful ones. And, the biggest thing of 3rd party addons is that if you want you can download them, if you don't want you're not forced to do so. so it's up to you.

 

I'd love if LockOn could be a bit more tweakable. I mean more skins for each aircraft, more countries, maybe a tool to build AI aircraft (which need a basic FM, some basic avionics, a 3D model and some skins) or to mod existing ones.

 

I've recently installed FreeFalcon 3 after a long time away from this community. Well, 3rd party mods made it a definitely new simulation, a breath of fresh air for a sim which now has 7 years. Today Falcon4 (with appropriate mods) has amazing graphics, good AI, realistic weapons parameters and a quite working dynamic campaign. It has lots of aircraft (from 60s fighters to todays last generation ones) which can be flown in campaings from Korea to Iraq, Bosnia and Central Europe (just to tell some).

 

LockOn is much more a modern sim (mainly in the graphics), but still lacks many of these features. Surely no one here is asking ED to release source code. But thinking that user addons or SDK kill software like these, IMHO puts you in the wrong way.

 

I think ED is slowly becoming aware of this and the first step (at least I hope it's just so) of allowing other 3D models to be built for future lockon expansions gives the picture of today's world of simulation.

Building a sim today is much a harder experience than building it some years ago. The effort done by a team to do it is so huge that it looks quite a waste to use it with just one aircraft (or any other machine). Therefore it makes more sense to build a sim which is much more comprehensive and can later be used as a general sim platform.

[VapoR]

Falcon 4 and Strike Fighters for example allow a lot of 3rd party mods/addons (in different ways, but still they do it). Well there is no X-wing in any of these sims

 

Actually, there is an X-Wing for Strike Fighters!! :roll:

[britgliderpilot]

Falcon 4 and Strike Fighters for example allow a lot of 3rd party mods/addons (in different ways, but still they do it). Well there is no X-wing in any of these sims

 

Actually, there is an X-Wing for Strike Fighters!! :roll:

 

Really?

 

 

In that case . . . . . I rest my case.

 

Not saying that the community can't have an input, but someone NEEDS to do final quality control.

[Starlight]

In any case, look Falcon 4 with the latest official patch (1.08 of 1998). and then take a look at Freefalcon 3 or at Falcon 4 Sp 4.2. The community made it at least 50% better. (but I could have said even 100% better)

Given that dev community, even if it produced some X-Wing mods, I would still love it! They did so much for that game... I wish LockOn could be enhanced as much as Falcon 4.

Even with the current LockOn version, soon after having it installed and patched to 1.02, today I would feel it a bit less involving without the mods that I usually fly with. I'm not sure how many people here fly with a 100% standard (not tweaked) Lockon version...

 

Anyway, always remember my words.... if the community produces a mod NO ONE is forcing you to download it... NO ONE!!!!

It's better to have more choices than have absolutely nothing!

[Guest Dlink]

Actually Dlink,

 

On second reading of my post, seems that i did come accross with a bit of attitude so my apologies.

 

Mizzy.

 

All is forgiven :)

[Guest Dlink]

Falcon 4 and Strike Fighters for example allow a lot of 3rd party mods/addons (in different ways, but still they do it). Well there is no X-wing in any of these sims

 

Actually, there is an X-Wing for Strike Fighters!! :roll:

 

Really?

 

 

In that case . . . . . I rest my case.

 

Not saying that the community can't have an input, but someone NEEDS to do final quality control.

 

Actually if that is the extent to you case, perhaps you ought to take a look at your case.

 

You are judging the almost 100 absolutely fantastic addons for strike fighters because there is one addon you didn't want to see. The funny thing is, I have never seen that Xwing in any game I played online. AND I have played online with countless people since SF came out.

 

I believe my old boss had a word for what you are experiencing. "A perceived problem only". IOW, you think it is a problem when in fact it really doesn't exist at all.

 

There is no need for final quality control. Head on over the strike fighters forum on simhq, download some addons and have a look, you won't be disappointed.

 

Look at OFP, some of the best addons for any game out there. BTW there were members of the OFP community who had the same attitude that you had, luckily the rest won out and BIS released the tools required to add stuff to OFP.

 

Look at CounterStrike (perhaps not your cup of tea) , but it is the most played fps on the planet , bare none. AND it was done by a modder.

 

Need I got on.

 

I personally have never understood that attitude that only developers can put out high quality mods. As the person said above , no one if forcing you to download them. If you play online, find some friends to play with, ones you trust and problem solved.

[GGTharos]

What you're missing is the security scheme. Right now Lockon doesn't have a particularely good one, nor is it even possible to add stuff to lOMAC as is (withness the skins as evidence) ... so any 'sdk's' will have to wait at the very LEAST until the class ID's are decoupled sufficiently to allow addition of new object types, and you'll need to have a good security scheme in place to ensure that someone doesn't jsut jump on with an F-15C modified to fly like an F-22.

 

There do exist some solutions which are simple, some which are more complex, but the main point is - a lot of thought needs to go into it (ED has already laid out most of the ground work for security, IMHO) and the engine has to be capable of allowing it. As I already mentioned, judging from things said on this forum and th ebehavior of the game itself as well as various say 'country' mods, the LOMAC engine will curently not allow you to add squad and, no, I don't think they're een going to -think- about changing this in 1.2.

[SUBS17]

Falcon 4 and Strike Fighters for example allow a lot of 3rd party mods/addons (in different ways, but still they do it). Well there is no X-wing in any of these sims

 

Actually, there is an X-Wing for Strike Fighters!! :roll:

 

rofl, it had to happen

[SUBS17]

A worst case scenario is an invisible F-15 that can hover carrying phoenix missiles. With a stealth skin, in my years I have seen people do such things online(not with flight sims but other games). Some people forget that Falcon 4 was modified because the source code was released and thats why they are free. In this case the company which made the game no longer existed so its a fair thing to happen and both FF3 and SP42 BMS2.0 are excellent. Not so with Lockon, and its better for everyone involved that it remains that way. The better approach is when LO2 gets made that the aircraft is made with AFM, clickable pit a Dynamic Campaign etc, followed closely by a Su27 modeled to the same level. And the just progress from there for more aircraft etc. The things that I think the community should only look at is skins, 3d objects, sound packs and terrain(using a terrain editor). Likewise the 3d objects should be sent through ED before being placed in the next addon etc. If its good, everyone will play it.

cheers

Subs

[Guest Dlink]

What you're missing is the security scheme. Right now Lockon doesn't have a particularely good one, nor is it even possible to add stuff to lOMAC as is (withness the skins as evidence) ... so any 'sdk's' will have to wait at the very LEAST until the class ID's are decoupled sufficiently to allow addition of new object types, and you'll need to have a good security scheme in place to ensure that someone doesn't jsut jump on with an F-15C modified to fly like an F-22.

 

There do exist some solutions which are simple, some which are more complex, but the main point is - a lot of thought needs to go into it (ED has already laid out most of the ground work for security, IMHO) and the engine has to be capable of allowing it. As I already mentioned, judging from things said on this forum and th ebehavior of the game itself as well as various say 'country' mods, the LOMAC engine will curently not allow you to add squad and, no, I don't think they're een going to -think- about changing this in 1.2.

 

Why does there have to be a huge securty scheme in the game.I have played SF online quite a bit, never run into a problem. The solution is simplier than you think. ONLY play with people you trust. No security scheme required.

 

I have seen your suggestion so many times in the OFP community and the problems that were predicted never came true, except perhaps for there being TOO MANY ADDONS, because sometimes you would join a server and you had to download addon that they had installed on their server.

 

I too am not sure if the engine allows, perhaps YES, perhaps NO, but security is a perceived problem, PLUS, the problem would only exist in online play. The problem is solved by only playing with buds you know.

[Guest Dlink]

A worst case scenario is an invisible F-15 that can hover carrying phoenix missiles. With a stealth skin, in my years I have seen people do such things online(not with flight sims but other games). Some people forget that Falcon 4 was modified because the source code was released and thats why they are free. In this case the company which made the game no longer existed so its a fair thing to happen and both FF3 and SP42 BMS2.0 are excellent. Not so with Lockon, and its better for everyone involved that it remains that way. The better approach is when LO2 gets made that the aircraft is made with AFM, clickable pit a Dynamic Campaign etc, followed closely by a Su27 modeled to the same level. And the just progress from there for more aircraft etc. The things that I think the community should only look at is skins, 3d objects, sound packs and terrain(using a terrain editor). Likewise the 3d objects should be sent through ED before being placed in the next addon etc. If its good, everyone will play it.

cheers

Subs

 

It isn't better for everyone. If I give you the 100% benefit of the doubt, it is best for online play. BUT you can bet there are far more offline players than online. Plus the problem of online play is solved by only playing with buds online. AND this is what a fair number of people do right now anyway. Virtual squadrons being the prime example.