Suggestion for a chargeable MiG21bis II upgrade

[RogueRunner]

On 2/16/2023 at 9:53 PM, 303_Kermit said:

Why?! To pose an easier target for F-16 ?

???

Most mods being released now is from the cold war period. I do not see the Lancer compete against modern era jets but more in a 3rd world conflict scenario where both sides have aging and semi modern fighters. The Lancer vs Mirage F1M would be a nice scenario

[303_Kermit]

It's MiG-21-93 

Photographed at the Paris Air Show, Le Bourget.  The pictured sole prototype MiG-21-93 was first shown in 1993, and incorporates an refurbished airframe fitted with avionics and weapons of the MiG-29. The only known customer for the type is the Indian AF, reportedly 125 of their MiG-21s were to be refurbished (with Russian assistance) by Hindustan Aircraft Limited (HAL) to the new version. Designated MiG-21 Bison.

On foto below prototype of Bison carrying 2xR-73 + 2xR-27(ER?)

On 2/20/2023 at 11:23 AM, WinterH said:

Indian MiG-21Bison can use R-73 and R-77, and not R-27.

Edited February 22, 2023 by 303_Kermit

[303_Kermit]

On 2/20/2023 at 1:50 PM, RogueRunner said:

The Lancer vs Mirage F1M would be a nice scenario

Actually the proper opponent for MRF1 was ... MiG-21bis. They met over Angola couple times on equal terms. Reports say, that bis poses better Radar (!), R-60 were equal to the Matra -550 of South African Air forces. MiG was better maneuverable, Mirage better performed on low altitude because of economical Engine - adjusted for low lvl operations.

Introducing a Lancer/ Bison would be ... huge overkill.

Edited February 22, 2023 by 303_Kermit

[WinterH]

8 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

It's MiG-21-93 

Photographed at the Paris Air Show, Le Bourget.  The pictured sole prototype MiG-21-93 was first shown in 1993, and incorporates an refurbished airframe fitted with avionics and weapons of the MiG-29. The only known customer for the type is the Indian AF, reportedly 125 of their MiG-21s were to be refurbished (with Russian assistance) by Hindustan Aircraft Limited (HAL) to the new version. Designated MiG-21 Bison.

MiG-21-93 demonstrator was displayed with a R-27, but, afaik, when it was fully developed in Bison for India R-27 wasn't used, hence why I've said "no body adopted a MiG-21 upgrade operationally with R-27"

For the final time, existence of a direct air-to-air match is NOT a necessity for a module's development. It is better to have the proper versions first, as in the case with the MiG-21Bis we already have, or the Mirage F1CE and EE. Now that we have them, there's little legitimate reasons to think something like a LanceR, Bison, or F1M has no place in the sim. I'll leave it at that, as this is clearly fruitless and dragging on.

[303_Kermit]

10 minutes ago, WinterH said:

afaik, when it was fully developed in Bison for India R-27 wasn't used, hence why I've said "no body adopted a MiG-21 upgrade operationally with R-27"

After Wikipedia (english):
"MiG-21bis upgrade program for the Indian Air Force, developed from the MiG-21-93. Modernised aircraft are also known as "MiG-21 Bison". A contract for the upgrade of 125 Indian Air Force aircraft was signed in January 1996, with an option for the upgrade of 50 additional aircraft. While it was originally planned to upgrade at least 30 aircraft at the Sokol Plant in Russia, in May 1998 the contract was modified: only two prototypes would be modernised in Russia, while the 123 remaining aircraft were to be modernised by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in its Nasik factory. The first two upgraded aircraft were presented in October 1998. The serial phase of the modernisation took place between 2001 and 2008. The modernisation includes an overhaul of the airframe, with a 10-year service life extension. A new drop-shaped canopy with a single-piece windscreen replaces the old one. In the cockpit, a new head-up display is installed, together with a multifunction display. The controls are redesigned to a HOTAS arrangement. A new autopilot is added, as well as an inertial navigation system and GPS receivers. The aircraft are equipped with the Phazotron Kopyo (Spear) radar, developed from the Zhuk and capable of simultaneously tracking eight targets and engaging two of them. The MiG-21UPG upgrade also includes compatibility with new air-to-air weaponry, like the R-27, R-77 and R-73 missiles, the latter of which can be cued to a helmet-mounted sight. Other new weapons include the Kh-31A anti-ship missile and the KAB-500Kr guided bomb. Chaff/flare dispensers are installed on the upper side of the wing root. The old radar warning receiver is replaced by the Indian-developed Tarang, and an internal jammer is added.^[8]"


I just stick to the known facts.

IMO Helmet mounted sight, internal jammer, pulse doppler PESA radar, modern RWR, place it as an opponent for F-16 / F-18 rather than MRF1.

With my best regards

Kermit

PS. Full article here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-21_variants#Upgrade_programmes

Edited February 22, 2023 by 303_Kermit

[Bremspropeller]

12 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

Actually the proper opponent for MRF1 was ... MiG-21bis.

I disagree. The proper opponent of the F1 was the MiG-23. The -21 didn't have the Fox 1 capability to pose a threat to a decently armed (read: non-embargoed) F1 user fielding S530Fs. Non-embargoed SAAF would also have had the opportunity to buy Magic 2s in the late 80s, which would have turned the favor back on relatively equal terms vs the R-60 armed MiG-23s.

4 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

IMO Helmet mounted sight, internal jammer, pulse doppler PESA radar, modern RWR, place it as an opponent for F-16 / F-18 rather than MRF1.

Yeah. I'll just throw in the moroccan RDY upgrade for the F1. Go, eat some MICAs...

[303_Kermit]

11 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

The -21 didn't have the Fox 1

Neether had them MRF1  Over Angola MiG-21bis meet MRF1 on equal terms. Check reports from dogfights. In DCS Fox 1 of MRF1 aren't better in any case than the R-3R of MiG21bis.

Here is an description of Bison specification: Helmet mounted sight, vertical scan, R-77, R-73, R-27
 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by 303_Kermit

[WinterH]

18 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

I just stick to the known facts.

Yes, like LanceR carrying R-73 and R-27 right? :))

[Bremspropeller]

8 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

Neether had them MRF1  Over Angola MiG-21bis meet MRF1 on equal terms. Check reports from dogfights. In DCS Fox 1 of MRF1 aren't better in any case than the R-3R of MiG21bis.

I have a copy of Vlamgat myself, so I know about the embargos in place for the SAAF, which part of my post you chose to ignore. Bummer.

The S530F is very much better than the R-3R.

 

 

[303_Kermit]

17 minutes ago, WinterH said:

Yes, like LanceR carrying R-73 and R-27 right? :))

I talked about both planes together. Since both modifications were prepared roughly at the same time. Both Modifications poses modern weapon , PESA radar and modern RWR.

Anyway I proved my point. Watch out what you wish for, because it actually may came to life someday, and you realize that there's nowhere to fly it, and you like  much better MiG-29A anyway... I guess it will be truth for 99% of virtual pilots. Who would choose MiG-21 bison/lancer over MiG-29?

Edited February 22, 2023 by 303_Kermit

[WinterH]

16 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

Anyway I proved my point. Watch out what you wish for, because it actually may came to life someday, and you realize that there's nowhere to fly it, and you like  much better MiG-29A anyway... I guess it will be truth for 99% of virtual pilots. Who would choose MiG-21 bison/lancer over MiG-29?

Well no you didn't: I've already said in my first post: in DCS, anything may or may not meet anything else, according to mission maker's desires. Besides, great majority of us who are interested in these sorts of birds know it pretty well they won't nearly have the flight performance of aircraft designed later than their original builds, and... we don't give a damn about it, at all.

[303_Kermit]

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

Besides, great majority of us who are interested in these sorts of birds know it pretty well they won't nearly have the flight performance of aircraft designed later than their original builds, and... we don't give a damn about it, at all.

... Agree, and that is why a grownup part of MiG-21 community wants to have classic MiG-21 first; not the "most fancy one". 
- MiG-21 bis without bugs and simplifications in FM,DM, Radar, and Radionavigation
- There comes a classic enemy of MiG-21: F-4 Phantom : whole family is expected, so I wish to oppose them whole family of "балалайка" PFM, MF, F-13. Lancer and Bison are "Nice to have", but not that needed.
It's like having Ketchup and forgetting about Sausage... Like learning how to cut a single hair in 4 parts alongside it's length, without knowing how to cut a bred...

Edited February 22, 2023 by 303_Kermit

[WinterH]

4 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

... Agree, and that is why a grownup part of MiG-21 community

You sure that you represent that? 

Also PFM = the variant I couldn't care less about, MF: Not meaningfully different enough from Bis in either direction of being better or older to make it interesting. F-13 I'd love to, do want, been saying that many times through even this thread. LanceR and Bison are indeed nice to have and not needed, and frankly, imo same goes about most of the older variants too.

Do I want Bis to be brought up to a better standard? Yes, but I am not expecting it at this point anymore, so chose to enjoy it as much as I can in its current state long ago...

Also, since you seem to love period perfect match-ups, we already have the classic enemy for the Phantom we're getting: we'll get two relatively later F-4Es, and Bis is the counterpart to that, as will the eventualy MiG-23MLA from Razbam will be. It's not like we're getting Vietnam era Phantoms, so PFM isn't really that much of a necessity.

You insist that there's only one right way of module choice for DCS, and yeah that's just your opinion, your own truth for just you. In that light, your ketchup/sausage analogy holds about as much water as the rest of your posts in the thread, which isn't much.

[303_Kermit]

4 minutes ago, WinterH said:

You sure that you represent that?

Check yourself. Make a pool. We'll see 

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

It's not like we're getting Vietnam era Phantoms, so PFM isn't really that much of a necessity.

Lots of PFMs in the Middle East as well.

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

F-13 I'd love to, do want, been saying that many times through even this thread.

Same. Even though I'd prefer an F-7B with those outboard pylons for additional combat capability over the F-13.

[303_Kermit]

4 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Same. Even though I'd prefer an F-7B with those outboard pylons for additional combat capability over the F-13.

I like FL for the same reason

[303_Kermit]

16 hours ago, WinterH said:

It's not like we're getting Vietnam era Phantoms, so PFM isn't really that much of a necessity.

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're going to get 1974 F-4E - it's not that far. 
2. Everybody know that later we may expect a Navy Phantom. B, J, or N (as far as I recall , and correct me if I'm wrong) all of them took part in Vietnam War. So, as you see there is a logic behind what I wrote, and one may need MF/PFM/FL/PF/F-13 development for DCS. More than Bison or Lancer

Edited February 23, 2023 by 303_Kermit

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, 303_Kermit said:

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're going to get 1974 F-4E - it's not that far. 
2. Everybody know that later we may expect a Navy Phantom. B, J, or N (as far as I recall , and correct me if I'm wrong) all of them took part in Vietnam War. So, as you see there is a logic behind what I wrote, and one may need MF/PFM/FL/PF/F-13 development for DCS. More than Bison or Lancer

 

The early F-4E should fit into the tail-end of the Linebacker Raids, so yeah, it's *just* okay for SEA missions and it's also very useful for post Nickel Grass Yom Kippur War missions. Not sure if there had even been "proper" IDF aircraft delivered with slats before the YKW. There might have been a hand full.

It's not sure what type of Navy Phantom we're going to get. My bet is on a J and the S, but I could be wrong and I wouldn't mind. They're all good choices.

The N came to the fleet just after the hot portion of the SEA conflict was over and it streamlined the previously and varyingly upgraded B models into a common variant, incorporating some J features (like the slotted stab and uplocked inboard LE droops). Going down the B line (pun intended) would cover the greatest timeframe from the early-mid 60s, into the 80s with two or three iterations of the B/N.

As to the Fishbeds, the only variant I would let out of your list is the PF, as it's too close to the F-13 in terms of capability. Or the really lack thereof. The PFM at least has the improved radar and the gunpod. The MF from my perspective only makes sense once we have one of the earlier models squared away, as it's comparatively close to Bis capabilities.

[303_Kermit]

19 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

As to the Fishbeds, the only variant I would let out of your list is the PF, as it's too close to the F-13 in terms of capability.

True... somehow I'm myself surprised how it "sneaked out" ... I think the Polish modification with 4 pylons came to my mind, but it 's very similar to FL probably.
About F-4N - afaik it's a F-4B mod. Englisch Wiki (article with a star) states, that it took part in conflict. 
here:
https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/museums/nnam/explore/collections/aircraft/f/f-4n-phantom-ii.html
is a phantom F-4N that took part in conflict, scoring one Vietnamese MiG-19

"The F-4N Phantom II (Bureau Number 153915) on display is painted in the markings of its final squadron, Fighter Squadron (VF) 154 operating from the carrier Midway (CV-41). While serving on board the same carrier in VF-161 during 1972, the aircraft downed a MiG-19 fighter during aerial combat over North Vietnam. The crew of the aircraft during this flight was Lieutenants Patrick Arwood and James Bell."

My best regards
Kermit

Edited February 23, 2023 by 303_Kermit

[Bremspropeller]

Do you mean four pylons as in four pylons on four hardpoints or are you referring to the Monsun pylon, enabling two heaters on a single hardpoint?

[303_Kermit]

27 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Do you mean four pylons as in four pylons on four hardpoints or are you referring to the Monsun pylon, enabling two heaters on a single hardpoint?

That's actually MiG-21PFM type 94 with GP-9 pod and double intermediate pylon "Monsun" that I meant, yes. MiG-21PF type 74 doesn't have GP-9 capability.

Sorry for my English

Edited February 23, 2023 by 303_Kermit

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, 303_Kermit said:

"The F-4N Phantom II (Bureau Number 153915) on display is painted in the markings of its final squadron, Fighter Squadron (VF) 154 operating from the carrier Midway (CV-41). While serving on board the same carrier in VF-161 during 1972, the aircraft downed a MiG-19 fighter during aerial combat over North Vietnam. The crew of the aircraft during this flight was Lieutenants Patrick Arwood and James Bell."

BuNo 153915 (Rock River 105) was a B at this time, though:

 

1 hour ago, 303_Kermit said:

That's actually MiG-21PFM type 94 with GP-9 pod and double intermediate pylon "Monsun" that I meant, yes. MiG-21PF type 74 doesn't have GP-9 capability.

Sorry for my English

No worries, your input is always appreciated!

What I meant with the F-7B is an additional outboard hardpoint:

It's kind of a sweet spot between the initial F-13 and the more capable third generation M/MF jets.

[303_Kermit]

56 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

BuNo 153915 (Rock River 105) was a B at this time, though:

 

No worries, your input is always appreciated!

What I meant with the F-7B is an additional outboard hardpoint:

It's kind of a sweet spot between the initial F-13 and the more capable third generation M/MF jets.

True. It's similar concept to FL - it's kind of PF with 4 pylons:


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And here is PF next to Fl I believe:
 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by 303_Kermit

[Bremspropeller]

Great find, thanks!

The FL should also be able to carry the GP-9, correct?

FL it is, then

 

Ya hear, @WinterH?

FL,

FL,

FL!

[WinterH]

@Bremspropeller Nah F-13/Early J-7 (which honestly can be done as a 2in1 module), late J-7, and any of the Turbo-Modernized ones for the lolz. These are the only ones I care about/matter, PF gen is just pure heresy

Besides F-13 still fits you people's pointless Vietnam dreams , and Bis is a better match for our upcoming F-4Es