Mi-24P autopilot and weapons guides, + Aerodynamics

[kotor633]

Thanks, really great work you're doing there.

[AeriaGloria]

5 hours ago, kotor633 said:

Thanks, really great work you're doing there.

I am working on re doing parts of it, fixing some errors. If you have any suggestions let me know 

[AeriaGloria]

First post is updated with new AP guide version 5.3 which includes changes with Yaw AP in most recent patch. The weapons guide is also recently updated 

[AeriaGloria]

Updated weapons to include new rocket lofting section, more bombing info, tables, and updated my past comments on the OFP2 to better align to my current realization of its power. See first post 

[Razorback]

Rocket lofting from Mi-24P in DCS...already tested and approved!
Very usefull and your file has a lot of very interesting details.
Thx a lot for your document, very appreciated!

[Rover]

The autopilot part helped me alot .

Although the largest part was it helping me realize something was wrong. Like the "control helper" having been reactivated since I last played.

 

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, Rover said:

The autopilot part helped me alot .

Although the largest part was it helping me realize something was wrong. Like the "control helper" having been reactivated since I last played.

 

Oh damn. Maybe I should add a disclaimer about making sure control helper is off? 

[aaronwhite]

Just wanted to add my thanks! I'd take this all as gospel just seeing how frequently I saw you motoring around on Rotorheads in the Mi-24!  

[AeriaGloria]

On 3/8/2023 at 11:55 AM, aaronwhite said:

Just wanted to add my thanks! I'd take this all as gospel just seeing how frequently I saw you motoring around on Rotorheads in the Mi-24!  

Glad to help. I love answering questions and helping. 
 

I just finished the hopefully FINAL version, 6.0. It includes the new special options settings, so if you want to learn more about “PEDALS AUTO MOVE” or another special option is should all be there for the autopilot and flight controls. First post is updated with 6.0 on Google drive

[kotor633]

Thank you.

[kikimora]

@AeriaGloria Hello, I cannot download your weapons guide. The google drive link in the first post leads me to a message saying the file is in the recycle bin. Autopilot guide downloads without any issue. Would it be please possible to check the accessibility of weapons guide file? Thank you.

[AeriaGloria]

13 hours ago, kikimora said:

@AeriaGloria Hello, I cannot download your weapons guide. The google drive link in the first post leads me to a message saying the file is in the recycle bin. Autopilot guide downloads without any issue. Would it be please possible to check the accessibility of weapons guide file? Thank you.

It is fixed, thank you for letting me know. There have been many changes lately. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Dm9sjbkrQebwGf3FlnFha_vSj8XBLY6g/view?usp=drivesdk

Edited June 9, 2023 by AeriaGloria

[YoYo]

Thx for this guide, I was looking something about bombs :).

[AeriaGloria]

Updated AP guide with control laws/gear ratios of autopilot at the end. This way you exactly know what autopilot will do and when in precise amounts.
 

I got these from translating the avionics maintenance manual, the AP performance in attitude hold/dampening/compensation can be adjusted by maintenance, but usually kept near these values with a 20% margin of error or so. 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by AeriaGloria

[kikimora]

@AeriaGloria Thank you for your guides. I am trying to fly using the route mode (section D.1 in your guide) but I am not able to fly the set course. The set course usually deviates some degrees from the course I fly (checked on the bottom of the F2). I guess there is no need to add or subtract magnetic variation or drift angle when entering the course or play with the Greben setting. As a pilot I should simply enter the desired (true) course and  that's it. Is this inaccuracy to be expected or am I doing something wrong? Thank you.

Edited November 24, 2023 by kikimora

[AeriaGloria]

2 minutes ago, kikimora said:

@AeriaGloria Thank you for your guides. I am trying to fly using the route mode (section D.1 in your guide) but I am not able to fly the set course. The set course usually deviates from the course I fly (checked on the bottom of the F2). I gues there is no need to add or subtract magnetic variation or drift angle when entering the course. As a pilot I should simply enter the desired (true) course and  that's it. Is this inaccuracy to be expected or am I doing something wrong? Thank you.

 

I made my own graphic for this. The doppler can determine drift angle from wind, and magnetic variation is already compensated for by Petrovich/CPG adjusting KM-2. Since these errors are known they are corrected. One of the biggest advantages of route mode over normal heading hold 

[randomTOTEN]

Yeah, it's basically what we in the west would call "track hold" or probably more precisely, "track select"

[kikimora]

Ok, so is the operation as simple as entering the course to SFPA and the roll channel takes care of the rest?

Great graphic, btw. Thanks!

[AeriaGloria]

11 minutes ago, kikimora said:

Ok, so is the operation as simple as entering the course to SFPA and the roll channel takes care of the rest?

Great graphic, btw. Thanks!

Yeah just be aware it’s easy to overpower roll channel with 18% cyclic, and it will not bank you more than 15 degrees. It deflects 15% for every degree difference, so within 6.5 degrees from set course it will give less and less output, and is even easier to overpower 

In addition, you have to press the “OFF” button when done using if you want it to work right. Hover hold/Route hold both do this, that if they are deactivated by exceeding doppler limits (7 degrees pitch, 30 degrees roll, or by passing the 50 kmh ground speed threshold, or 3,000m AGL limit) then their last input is saved in your autopilot. If it gets deactivated becuase I pitch below 7 degrees while it wants me to turn 6.5 degrees left, it will constantly be trying to turn me left with full deflection in circles over and over again until it’s either turned off or re-engaged. Fun fact, pressing “OFF” will also re center your pitch/roll attitude hold as if you had just pressed and released trim or just turned them on…….

You will know you are on the right course when the roll channel is at 0 deflection, and using the hat trim is especially helpful for adjustments. 

[AeriaGloria]

  I have updated my weapons guide with bomb lofting section and autopilot with new graphics, but much more importantly…….

   I have added my own translation of an aerodynamics document that explains the aerodynamic features and issues of the Mi-24, including graphs giving control deflection/trim needed for level flight at different speeds, and for different flight modes. It includes many other graphs and information that may be of interest. 
 

I have put a lot of work into interpreting the graphs and doing my best to explain them, let me know if I got anything from or if there is any suggestions

Aerodynamics Translated:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ooc_8euzYEI21G2IV7X1xWMd1mlv7ess/view?usp=drivesdk

Edited November 28, 2023 by AeriaGloria

[kotor633]

Hi,

With the patch DCS 2.9.6.57650, S-5KP and S-5M rockets were added as selectable weapons. Do you already have some experience with them? Are the differences to the S-5KO noticeable in DCS?
@AeriaGloria Do you plan to update your Weapons Guide accordingly?

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-5_rocket
https://www.armamentresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/ARES-Research-Report-No.-1-S-5-Rockets-in-Land-Warfare.pdf

[AeriaGloria]

22 minutes ago, kotor633 said:

Hi,

With the patch DCS 2.9.6.57650, S-5KP and S-5M rockets were added as selectable weapons. Do you already have some experience with them? Are the differences to the S-5KO noticeable in DCS?
@AeriaGloria Do you plan to update your Weapons Guide accordingly?

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-5_rocket
https://www.armamentresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/ARES-Research-Report-No.-1-S-5-Rockets-in-Land-Warfare.pdf

I can update it. Basically, all S-5 are now updated to compensate for being more explosive then weight in TNT. This means S-5KO is more powerful then it used to be. You will find that S-5M is basically same explosive power as S-5KO, with none of the anti armor penetration. S-5KP will have the most explosive power by I think 10-20%, and the most penetration. The con is that it’s also the heaviest, and I think was only made in the late 80s as a modern fuse upgrade for S-5 before it went out of production for USSR. The in game model is dated 1986 

[jojojung]

@AeriaGloria 
Thanks for all your work with your very usefull manuals. The pure yaw AP has only 18% authority without any paddle inputs but after that the SDV-5000-OA can still move the paddles, right?
Still I have some questions about the yaw AP or to be more precise with the SDV-5000-OA and the "Paddle Auto Move" option. Maybe you can help me in this case.

1) Is the SDV-5000-OA really able to move the paddles the way it does with "Paddle Auto Move" set to on? What does the pilot do when the SDV-5000-OA move the paddles to not press the microswitches?

2) In the "Dienstvorschrift" for the Mi24D of the NVA army of the ex GDR it is said that the pilot puts the right paddle nearly to max to counter the torque when hover start.
In DCS this is not needed when the Yaw AP is on and the "Paddle Auto Move" activated. Landing is also possible with no manual paddle inputs since yaw AP and SDV-5000-OA will keep the Mi24 on course. It is only needed if you put to much torque in and the system is overloaded. 
Was it needed to press the paddles manually while starting and landing the helicopter because the system cant hold it or did the SDV-5000-OA move the paddles for the pilots.

3) You turned "Paddle Auto Move" off as you mentioned in your paper. But does this not cut the SDV-5000-OA which was able to move the paddles out of the buisness? 
Then it would be harder in DCS to fly with "Paddle Auto Move" off then it would be in real life with the paddle movement of the SDV-5000-OA. 
Which option is more realistic to the real thing?

Thanks a lot!

PS: the link to the "Dienstvorschrift: A 101/1/309 Hubschrauber Mi-24, Steuertechnik und Navigation" https://www.kondruss.com/mad/a-101-1-309/index.htm

Edited December 29, 2024 by jojojung

[AeriaGloria]

6 hours ago, jojojung said:

@AeriaGloria 
Thanks for all your work with your very usefull manuals. The pure yaw AP has only 18% authority without any paddle inputs but after that the SDV-5000-OA can still move the paddles, right?
Still I have some questions about the yaw AP or to be more precise with the SDV-5000-OA and the "Paddle Auto Move" option. Maybe you can help me in this case.

1) Is the SDV-5000-OA really able to move the paddles the way it does with "Paddle Auto Move" set to on? What does the pilot do when the SDV-5000-OA move the paddles to not press the microswitches?

2) In the "Dienstvorschrift" for the Mi24D of the NVA army of the ex GDR it is said that the pilot puts the right paddle nearly to max to counter the torque when hover start.
In DCS this is not needed when the Yaw AP is on and the "Paddle Auto Move" activated. Landing is also possible with no manual paddle inputs since yaw AP and SDV-5000-OA will keep the Mi24 on course. It is only needed if you put to much torque in and the system is overloaded. 
Was it needed to press the paddles manually while starting and landing the helicopter because the system cant hold it or did the SDV-5000-OA move the paddles for the pilots.

3) You turned "Paddle Auto Move" off as you mentioned in your paper. But does this not cut the SDV-5000-OA which was able to move the paddles out of the buisness? 
Then it would be harder in DCS to fly with "Paddle Auto Move" off then it would be in real life with the paddle movement of the SDV-5000-OA. 
Which option is more realistic to the real thing?

Thanks a lot!

PS: the link to the "Dienstvorschrift: A 101/1/309 Hubschrauber Mi-24, Steuertechnik und Navigation" https://www.kondruss.com/mad/a-101-1-309/index.htm

1. Yes, the hydraulic damper is able to move the pedals according to hydraulic force triggered by the autopilot system so that it can use the full authority of the anti torque control 

The only way for heading hold to work is pilot has to take feet off pedals or atlas more touch the top of the pedals. So only possible when pilot removed feet or uses only their heels. I think it is common misunderstanding to think the system works while pilot is using pedals for normal flight 

2. A. I wouldn’t say it is needed to move the pedals for hover, but that I don’t think any pilot would really take their feet off the pedals and let the autopilot handle anti torque for takeoff or landing. Maybe to help hold once in position. Letting Heading hold take care of it also isn’t perfect because the nose needs to move left about 7 degrees before the Heading Hold is outputting maximum force. Again, I think it’s a misunderstanding that heading hold is there so pilot can take their feet off pedals for takeoff or landing. Is is there only for maintaining heading once already stable 
 

B. Our Mi-24 is a later model with larger anti torque rotor blade chord by about 12%. This gives it better Yaw control then earlier Mi-24D and 24V models.
 

3.  Yes. Turning Pedal Auto move to off changes the Heading hold from having 118% authority + trimming to only 18% authority + no trimming. It is not harder to fly because SDV-5000-OA is only helping Heading hold, which is only needed to keep a specific heading, a function whose usefulness depends entirely upon your flying style. It has no function with the “stabilization mode” with microswitch pressed that actually helps dampen yaw, reduce ditch roll, and make maneuvering more smooth. 
 

It is most realistic with pedal auto move on and having microswitch in your pedals bound to microswitch. But understand that Heading Hold is almost certainly never used in takeoff/landing so pilots can take their feet off the pedals during the most dangerous phase of flight, and i would bet that many pilots go through whole flights while never using heading hold. 
 

If you are flying along a route, route hold is much better as it corrects for wind. Using heading hold by taking feet off pedals was likely good for allowing pilot to mess with some switch/knob or navigation, pay attention to some task and let heading hold keep the aircraft mostly straight. It is not something to actively assist you in all phases of flight at all times 

But that’s also part of being a simulator, some users use features much more then they would be used in real life; and some use them in ways they were not intended to be used, or use them differently because the implementation can’t be identical to reality (the “activate microswitch by moving pedals from center” giving the impression that heading hold that should assist you whenever you fly straight instead of having to be knowingly engaged in reality by lifting your feet) 

[jojojung]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb AeriaGloria:

1. Yes, the hydraulic damper is able to move the pedals according to hydraulic force triggered by the autopilot system so that it can use the full authority of the anti torque control 

The only way for heading hold to work is pilot has to take feet off pedals or atlas more touch the top of the pedals. So only possible when pilot removed feet or uses only their heels. I think it is common misunderstanding to think the system works while pilot is using pedals for normal flight 

2. A. I wouldn’t say it is needed to move the pedals for hover, but that I don’t think any pilot would really take their feet off the pedals and let the autopilot handle anti torque for takeoff or landing. Maybe to help hold once in position. Letting Heading hold take care of it also isn’t perfect because the nose needs to move left about 7 degrees before the Heading Hold is outputting maximum force. Again, I think it’s a misunderstanding that heading hold is there so pilot can take their feet off pedals for takeoff or landing. Is is there only for maintaining heading once already stable 
 

B. Our Mi-24 is a later model with larger anti torque rotor blade chord by about 12%. This gives it better Yaw control then earlier Mi-24D and 24V models.
 

3.  Yes. Turning Pedal Auto move to off changes the Heading hold from having 118% authority + trimming to only 18% authority + no trimming. It is not harder to fly because SDV-5000-OA is only helping Heading hold, which is only needed to keep a specific heading, a function whose usefulness depends entirely upon your flying style. It has no function with the “stabilization mode” with microswitch pressed that actually helps dampen yaw, reduce ditch roll, and make maneuvering more smooth. 
 

It is most realistic with pedal auto move on and having microswitch in your pedals bound to microswitch. But understand that Heading Hold is almost certainly never used in takeoff/landing so pilots can take their feet off the pedals during the most dangerous phase of flight, and i would bet that many pilots go through whole flights while never using heading hold. 
 

If you are flying along a route, route hold is much better as it corrects for wind. Using heading hold by taking feet off pedals was likely good for allowing pilot to mess with some switch/knob or navigation, pay attention to some task and let heading hold keep the aircraft mostly straight. It is not something to actively assist you in all phases of flight at all times 

But that’s also part of being a simulator, some users use features much more then they would be used in real life; and some use them in ways they were not intended to be used, or use them differently because the implementation can’t be identical to reality (the “activate microswitch by moving pedals from center” giving the impression that heading hold that should assist you whenever you fly straight instead of having to be knowingly engaged in reality by lifting your feet) 

Yes, that was also my understanding.
Thanks for explaining that in detail!
Then the most realistic option would either be to select the microswitches off by pressing on a button and only when your pilot would remove the feet from the paddles you deactivate microswitches, or to have a very narrow paddle movement input to deactivate the microswiches, because the system may register the light inputs when you have your own feet on the paddles, right? But then you will have to set a deadzone to get rid of the little paddle stutter inputs in center position for spring paddles. 
What would you select if you have FFB paddles which stay in position, like in the real Hind?
Happy new year and thanks again!