Indicate max range for a flight

[upyr1]

When planning a flight we should have something that indicates if the flight is beyond the max range. So we can plan refueling and drop tanks

[SharpeXB]

The “max range” of these aircraft when just cruising pretty much exceeds the AO on these maps. So when simply planning a flight such a feature wouldn’t tell you anything useful. Obviously your real range and endurance is affected by combat, using AB etc and that’s not predictable. With enough experience you can figure when you’ll need the bags. 

[Gierasimov]

Over in the ru part of the forum PilotMi8 posted an example calculation for Mi-24 module some time before it was released into early access. It was definitely fun read and nice bit of info, but I never used it in DCS. 

I remember years ago there was a calculation for the Warthog as well. Other than that, make sure the tanker is available or some of the airbases are on your side. I agree with SharepeXB.

As for the "if the flight is beyond the max range" - use public data on combat radius of given airframe, use its tactics, apply some fuel burn rate knowledge and you are good. 

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

The “max range” of these aircraft when just cruising pretty much exceeds the AO on these maps. So when simply planning a flight such a feature wouldn’t tell you anything useful. Obviously your real range and endurance is affected by combat, using AB etc and that’s not predictable. With enough experience you can figure when you’ll need the bags. 

There are still real world guidelines you can use, based on speed, payload, loiter time, expected combat time and the like. If you can estimate, then you can calculate using the figures 

1 hour ago, Gierasimov said:

Over in the ru part of the forum PilotMi8 posted an example calculation for Mi-24 module some time before it was released into early access. It was definitely fun read and nice bit of info, but I never used it in DCS. 

I remember years ago there was a calculation for the Warthog as well. Other than that, make sure the tanker is available or some of the airbases are on your side. I agree with SharepeXB.

As for the "if the flight is beyond the max range" - use public data on combat radius of given airframe, use its tactics, apply some fuel burn rate knowledge and you are good. 

The calculations exist- so there is no reason not to implement them.

[SharpeXB]

40 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

There are still real world guidelines you can use

So use them. There’s nothing in DCS stopping you. It’s not clear in your OP what “something that indicates you max range” is. If the Mission Planner showed you a colored circle or something that was your “max” range, it would be the size of the map and thus not very helpful. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

So use them. There’s nothing in DCS stopping you. It’s not clear in your OP what “something that indicates you max range” is. If the Mission Planner showed you a colored circle or something that was your “max” range, it would be the size of the map and thus not very helpful.

Yes, because there is only exactly one — no more, no less — aircraft in DCS and only one map size and only ever exactly one loadout that would assure that this ridiculous asumption was true.

Oh wait…

[Exorcet]

Range planning isn't always simple. One good way to do it in DCS is to just copy and paste a flight into an empty mission, use a fuel monitoring script, and let them fly in fast forward.

On my machine I can time accelerate AI more than 20x speed.

 

EDIT

I'd also advice turning off the AI option "RTB on Bingo". The AI doesn't necessarily take into account things like dropping payload increasing range on the return leg of the flight or the possibility of refueling.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Exorcet

[upyr1]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

So use them. There’s nothing in DCS stopping you. It’s not clear in your OP what “something that indicates you max range” is. If the Mission Planner showed you a colored circle or something that was your “max” range, it would be the size of the map and thus not very helpful. 

 

I was implying based on your speed, a payload, fuel load, loiter time, and the like. You could have asked for clarification 

[SharpeXB]

51 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

I was implying based on your speed, a payload, fuel load, loiter time, and the like. You could have asked for clarification 

Which aircraft? The Hornet will tell you your range and ideal Mach and altitude etc. The A-10C will basically never run out of fuel in the playtime most do in DCS so no point in worrying. 
The trouble with trying to make a precise fuel prediction in these aircraft is that the biggest factor you can’t predict is combat. For example, without using mil power and hitting the AB a gas guzzler like the F-18 can fly the full extent of these maps on internal fuel alone. So that’s a huge variable. A commercial or GA aircraft can plan this because they’re not doing something as unpredictable as combat. As far as I can tell, the CDUs in these planes don’t have the fuel prediction data like say an airliner has. That would seem to indicate that this sort of detailed planning isn’t done. 

[Tippis]

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Which aircraft?

Exactly. So your notion that you can categorically state that it is “not very helpful” is just inherently false. Such a statement relies entirely on it being a fixed and static number for a specific aircraft for a specific map and a specific loadout, all of which are catastrophically nonsensical and incorrect assumptions.

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The trouble with trying to make a precise fuel prediction in these aircraft is that the biggest factor you can’t predict is combat.

That's not a problem. In fact, that's kind of the whole point: you assume that it will happen and you need to make sure that the flight range for the setup covers the probable combat area by a wide margin to allow for said combat to happen. Hell, if it's well implemented, you don't even have that issue because you could just designate a set of WPs as “combat areas” and the calculator would mark up the fuel cost by 800% (or something) — everything else is already in there and easy to calculate.

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

As far as I can tell, the CDUs in these planes don’t have the fuel prediction data like say an airliner has.

The reason you can't tell is because — as is always the case — you speak from a position of complete ignorance of DCS, of the modules involved, and the topic at hand in general. Because yes, they do. Hell, even in the one plane you supposedly have some fleeting experience, there is a bingo setting. Guess where you get that number from? In others, it is continually calculated in exactly the way you assume it isn't, on the fly. Just because you aren't familiar enough with the aircraft you fly doesn't mean their actual proper use does not include something else you're also not familiar with.

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Which aircraft?

The one you currently have selected unless the flight path looks physically different.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

The Hornet will tell you your range and ideal Mach and altitude etc. The A-10C will basically never run out of fuel in the playtime most do in DCS so no point in worrying. 
The trouble with trying to make a precise fuel prediction in these aircraft is that the biggest factor you can’t predict is combat. For example, without using mil power and hitting the AB a gas guzzler like the F-18 can fly the full extent of these maps on internal fuel alone. So that’s a huge variable.

You are right combat is a big variable, however it is one that real life military officers have to deal with when planning a mission. 

We don't need precise calculations just an estimate built on the variables and assumptions a real life military officer would use planning a mission. 

You are basically claiming mission planning is impossible 

Edited April 6, 2022 by upyr1

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, upyr1 said:

You are basically claiming mission planning is impossible 

No of course it’s not. But look at it this way. I don’t see any fuel planning data in the CDUs of these aircraft or at least the ones I use (A-10C, F-18 and M-2000) they don’t have something like airliners have which does take into account all these variables in a precise way. So assuming that the DCS modules are feature complete, such detailed planning likely just isn’t done in combat aircraft. So the sim doesn’t need to do more than reality here. I’m sure there are basic planning guides IRL and they’d work for DCS if anyone wanted to use them. But it’s not hard in DCS to figure out how many bags to load out with, probably not IRL either. 

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

No of course it’s not. But look at it this way. I don’t see any fuel planning data in the CDUs of these aircraft or at least the ones I use (A-10C, F-18 and M-2000) they don’t have something like airliners have which does take into account all these variables in a precise way. So assuming that the DCS modules are feature complete, such detailed planning likely just isn’t done in combat aircraft. So the sim doesn’t need to do more than reality here.

I am asking ED to add something to the mission editor, so what the cockpit has or doesn't have is irrelevant. You need to base your arguments on real world mission planning tools that the military has if you want to make an argument from realism. 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m sure there are basic planning guides IRL and they’d work for DCS if anyone wanted to use them. But it’s not hard in DCS to figure out how many bags to load out with, probably not IRL either. 

So why not code the tables in DCS?

[Exorcet]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

No of course it’s not. But look at it this way. I don’t see any fuel planning data in the CDUs of these aircraft

DCS goes beyond the cockpit. The feature requested here is for mission editing. Whatever is in the planes doesn't matter.

[Mars Exulte]

16 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The “max range” of these aircraft when just cruising pretty much exceeds the AO on these maps. 

  Gonna have to go with this guy on this one. Max range, even for the helos, is rarely a factor, as you can generally crisscross the map with a full payload. The ''max range'' is typically well beyond the map edges if one way, and usually around the edges for ''combat radius'' (150 miles for a helo give or take usually, and from the very center of the map that's going to generally be out near the edges of the map).

 

  Loiter time is the more relevant statistic in DCS, but that's very variable based on weight, drag, throttle, altitude, temperature, and how closely you actually fly the ideal profile. This is a rare example of wikipedia info being ''good enough'', or even just napkin math for the purposes of mission planning. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Mars Exulte

[Exorcet]

4 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

  Gonna have to go with this guy on this one. Max range, even for the helos, is rarely a factor, as you can generally crisscross the map with a full payload. The ''max range'' is typically well beyond the map edges if one way, and usually around the edges for ''combat radius'' (150 miles for a helo give or take usually, and from the very center of the map that's going to generally be out near the edges of the map).

 

  Loiter time is the more relevant statistic in DCS, but that's very variable based on weight, drag, throttle, altitude, temperature, and how closely you actually fly the ideal profile. This is a rare example of wikipedia info being ''good enough'', or even just napkin math for the purposes of mission planning. 

 

The absolute max range may not be a factor for DCS maps (though this isn't really true in all cases), but on the larger maps you will hit fuel limits if you fly with a heavy payload, fly low to avoid detection, or fly with significant AB use.

For a realistic naval mission on the Gulf map for example you'll be flying from the Gulf of Oman. There is no way a carrier is going to risk getting into Silkworm range. Fly a hi-lo-hi profile and it's impossible to return from Bandar Abbas without refueling. I know because I tried:

Even on more ideal conditions you can't go anywhere you want without planning. Striking Kerman from Liwa or Al Dhafra in a F-16 is possible, but how many fuel tanks do you need? How many bombs can you carry? How many planes do you need to launch? It's not necessarily obvious.

I made the flight, but landing with 500 lbs of fuel isn't safe. And this was the ideal case with no enemy or weather to worry about.

Wiki is kind of useless here. The data is not presented in consistent format. "Range" can be ferry range in one case and combat radius in another, it's a bit of a mess, and it's not always labeled. I've try skimming it for helpful info and it falls short on this subject.

I will say that testing for range isn't all that difficult in DCS, but having a reasonable estimate precomputed would make things even faster. For really complex missions it could be considered a necessity.

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, upyr1 said:

You need to base your arguments on real world mission planning tools that the military has if you want to make an argument from realism. 

You should as well. I’m not a real pilot but I watch a lot of YouTube The “real world planning tool” for this is the Flight Management Computer onboard the aircraft. That and perhaps a reference guide with altitudes, weights and distances. Again this is for commercial aircraft which are planning an “A to B” flight with a standard profile of climb, cruise and descent with reserves for a divert and taxiing. They’re not planning on intercepting enemy aircraft or dodging SAMs. The unpredictable nature of combat ops would make this sort of detailed planning pointless. 

7 hours ago, upyr1 said:

I am asking ED to add something to the mission editor, so what the cockpit has or doesn't have is irrelevant.

The mission editor would just show you a “max range” the size of the map, so this wouldn’t be very useful. 

[Exorcet]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The mission editor would just show you a “max range” the size of the map, so this wouldn’t be very useful. 

Why would it be limited to such a thing? It could estimate fuel burn based on speed and altitude and then simply run the math on the route. That wouldn't give you a simple max range, it would give you the fuel state of the aircraft anywhere along the flight path. And as I proved above, this wouldn't be the size of the map in all cases.

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Why would it be limited to such a thing? It could estimate fuel burn based on speed and altitude and then simply run the math on the route. That wouldn't give you a simple max range, it would give you the fuel state of the aircraft anywhere along the flight path. And as I proved above, this wouldn't be the size of the map in all cases.

There’s a reason why combat aircraft conduct AAR. Because they can’t plan their fuel usage precisely! So why would DCS need a feature that’s not used IRL? I’ll guess that the real world planning for this is a lot less precise than you might imagine. You basically pack as much fuel as you can reasonably carry along with the stores to get the job done. And count on doing a lot of AAR. As far as DCS goes this is pretty easy to figure with enough experience. 

[Exorcet]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s a reason why combat aircraft conduct AAR. Because they can’t plan their fuel usage precisely! So why would DCS need a feature that’s not used IRL? I’ll guess that the real world planning for this is a lot less precise than you might imagine. You basically pack as much fuel as you can reasonably carry along with the stores to get the job done. And count on doing a lot of AAR. As far as DCS goes this is pretty easy to figure with enough experience. 

Sure AAR helps but you can't AAR over the enemy's SA-10 site. There will be a portion of the flight where the tanker won't be available, and this is absolutely going to be planned for. Just filling the planes up and hoping they have enough fuel is not how you conduct combat. Payloads are painstakingly chosen on a per mission basis because real militaries don't just wing it.

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/1711969/how-the-air-force-got-smarter-about-its-aviation-fuel-use-in-2018/

[Tippis]

30 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s a reason why combat aircraft conduct AAR. Because they can’t plan their fuel usage precisely!

The reason they can AAR is because they have planned their fuel usage and because they know how long they can stay up; how long they have to chase down the tanker; how long it takes to get back.

30 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

So why would DCS need a feature that’s not used IRL?

You keep saying this. What are you basing this on when we know for a fact that fuel planning is a core component of a mission package? You keep harping on about some supposed non-existence of a largely irrelevant on-baord system but what on earth does that have to do with the planning tool discussed here? Is this just another case of your never having actually used this part of the game and just throwing out random guesswork about it because you once again don't want to see DCS improve in any way?

More to the point, why shouldn't DCS include something that is both entirely in line with how things work in the real world and is also a fairly easy thing to implement in the editor? Where does this opposition to making the game more realistic and fully-featured come from?

[cfrag]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s a reason why combat aircraft conduct AAR. Because they can’t plan their fuel usage precisely! So why would DCS need a feature that’s not used IRL?

Huh. Isn't planning fuel management and endurance, tanker rendezvous during ingress and egress 3/4 of all real-world engagement planning? Methinks that placing tankers and their escorts, having them on-station and with enough fuel for all packages is therefore an essential part that mission designers (if they want to plan a realistic mission) will need every support they can get.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

You basically pack as much fuel as you can reasonably carry along with the stores to get the job done.

If you play Rambo-game style (the way I prefer), perhaps; just litter the place with immortal tankers so you can top off willy-nilly. IRL, not so much - combat logistics is applied science. So mission builders who want to create realistic mission profiles could benefit from built-in editor support for endurance calculation. 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

As far as DCS goes this is pretty easy to figure with enough experience

Game experience, yes. I believe the other people are talking about realistic mission profiles in DCS, which could benefit from editor support. 

Now, I'm not with the ultra-realistic bunch, so I'm ambivalent wrt this feature; I myself have little use for it. But I understand how it can be a highly appreciated tool for designers that look to create hyper-realistic missions. 

 

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

You should as well. I’m not a real pilot but I watch a lot of YouTube The “real world planning tool” for this is the Flight Management Computer onboard the aircraft. That and perhaps a reference guide with altitudes, weights and distances. Again this is for commercial aircraft which are planning an “A to B” flight with a standard profile of climb, cruise and descent with reserves for a divert and taxiing. They’re not planning on intercepting enemy aircraft or dodging SAMs. The unpredictable nature of combat ops would make this sort of detailed planning pointless. 

Mind explaining why do you think pilots plan missions inside the cockpit and aren't following plans made by someone at HQ? 

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

Mind explaining why do you think pilots plan missions inside the cockpit and aren't following plans made by someone at HQ? 

Check out some RW pilot live streams. You can see the whole process. 

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s a reason why combat aircraft conduct AAR. Because they can’t plan their fuel usage precisely! So why would DCS need a feature that’s not used IRL? I’ll guess that the real world planning for this is a lot less precise than you might imagine. You basically pack as much fuel as you can reasonably carry along with the stores to get the job done. And count on doing a lot of AAR. As far as DCS goes this is pretty easy to figure with enough experience. 

My explaining who you think lays out the waypoints for the strike packages and supporting assets like the tankers? 

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Check out some RW pilot live streams. You can see the whole process. 

Where these military or civilian pilots? 

Edited April 6, 2022 by upyr1