reported CCIP post-designate not working?

[SeaBass80]

Hi,

I have problems with getting CCIP post-designate to work as intended. As far as I understand from the HAF -34 document for the F-16C/D Block 50, the CCIP bombing mode provides the time-delay cue if the actual impact point is below the hud. Once WPN REL is depressed, the FCC should provide both the correct timing for weapon release as well as azimuth steering error by displacing the steering line from the flight path marker. Originally, I thought my problem was that this CCIP "post-designate" just fails to provide azimuth steering, as the steering line stayed on the flight path marker after WPN REL even when maneuvering. I just ran a quick simple test with MK82 from 5000ft without wind and it seems like the bombs actually drop the moment WPN REL is depressed. Track is attached. Has anybody got this working correctly? I thought that in the past at least the time delay was computed correctly - although I am pretty sure that in the past I also never received any azimuth steering guidance post WPN REL.

Thanks for looking into this!

CCIP-MK82-short.trk

[Frederf]

I can get it to work normally but I also see your issue and can demonstrate a few others myself. In your track it appears that the solution was just about to come onto the HUD at the moment of pickle which may play a part.

Some visual oddities noted:

• heading tape not hidden
• Slant range readout is not accurate
• bank angle scale not hidden
• lack of PUAC

Major functional oddities:

• ASL does not provide steering
• pipper dot does not remain on the designated point
• turning away after designation results in release
• early release in some situations
• release of second bomb in some situations

It's like there's an auto-release whenever it senses you're getting farther from solution. One should be able to designate and then turn 360 degrees in a circle before driving in to release.

[SeaBass80]

Thanks for that compilation of problems, Frederf. I thought it might just be me as not a lot of reports can be found in the F-16 forums and I thought that CCIP/CCRP are fully implemented. Maybe something got messed up at one of the last updates? I tried around a lot with the minimal test and found that most of the times the bombs release the moment I press WPN REL... happens in CCIP, CCRP and DTOS. Sometimes though the system seems to behave more "normal" and properly delay the release. The few times when the system behaved normally, strong direction inputs actually let to premature release, just like you mentioned. And post-designate CCIP does not correctly display steering information through displacing the ASL, even when the delay cue seems to work.

Maybe the developers can take a look and report some status of what's working and what's not working at the moment.

Edited April 13, 2022 by SeaBass80

[loner6.5G]

I just updated to 2.7.11 beta last night and started having the same issues with ccrp.  Didn't try ccip as I got frustrated and shut it down.

It seemed to be working properly in 2.7.10 stable.  Now, the weapon is not releasing when it should and sometimes releases as soon as the button is pressed.  I had several passes where the GBU never released at all. Took me a while to figure out it wasn't me as I'm still learning.

[TheBigTatanka]

My guess is that this is related to how they've implemented the max toss pull up cue, which seems to have its own host of problems. I'm so confused with that thing, and I'm sure it's issues are seeping into other modes.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[NineLine]

6 hours ago, loner6.5G said:

I just updated to 2.7.11 beta last night and started having the same issues with ccrp.  Didn't try ccip as I got frustrated and shut it down.

It seemed to be working properly in 2.7.10 stable.  Now, the weapon is not releasing when it should and sometimes releases as soon as the button is pressed.  I had several passes where the GBU never released at all. Took me a while to figure out it wasn't me as I'm still learning.

I'll check the track from the OP, but please include a track if you have one as well.

[NineLine]

I am just focusing on the original post, the time delay function doesn't seem to be working, that's what others are seeing?

EDIT: actually, after further testing, it works, but depending on approach and speed it can be really good or really bad. I think I have a bad example in a track, I just need to make sure its not me doing something wrong and I can report.

[Frederf]

I've never flown through the delayed solution and not have the bomb come off. I don't think this is a problem. However I have had the bomb come off when it's not supposed to (early or otherwise not in constraints).

For slightly early releases it might be the case that the ballistic computation and the actual fall trajectory are not in agreement or the ballistic calculation is fed poor info somehow. This feels like it could be the case as flying around with infinite weapons and targeting things with a delay cue routinely results in variably short (never long) impacts. The logic in these cases seems sound, just that the precision of the calculation is somehow off.

On the other hand the bombs (Mk 82) are releasing logically wrong with wide lateral steering errors. If you designate and then fly 3000' to the right of the target firstly the ASL doesn't show any steering back to the left but also the bombs will release when you pass beside the solution (3/9 constraint) instead of not releasing based on 5 mil constraint. Because the ASL doesn't move regardless of your actual alignment I don't know if fixing the ASL movement would cause the constraints to mend themselves as a consequence.

Similarly but distinct if you designate and then fly a 360 degree circle (far away, not passing 3/9 of a solution) the bombs will come off with both LGBs and Mk 82s which neither should in those cases.

Here's a track of 3 short impacts (slightly short, slightly short, very short) then an intentional lateral aim (release out of constraints) and then a turn away (release out of constraints).

F-16 CCIP delay cue.trk

[NineLine]

Yes, so far I have reported:

• Short Impacts on time delay drops
• no time delay shown (should replace time to steerpoint while WPN REL held)
• pipper not remaining on target while WPN REL held

[SeaBass80]

Very reproducibly - maybe these can be added to the error report for the team:

1. In CCRP and DTOS, WPN REL very often leads to instant weapon release, especially when far from the solution (before the solution cue starts decending the ASL.
2. No azimuth steering guidance after CCIP designate at all. Frederf's last trackfile shows this quite well. This at least has been missing "feature" for a long time... I think it was never working.

[NineLine]

1 is already reported, there seems to be an issue with delay calculation, I will look more into the steering guidance, but I want to say or assume its related to #1 as its not being calculated properly all around.