Lasing targets.

[Aussie Pilot]

I've just seen the new Top Gun movie, thought it was great, they did a good sequel and there will always be debatable scenes etc I guess but...

My question to those in the know about lasing targets... *POSSIBLE MOVIE SPOILER ALERT* if you haven't seen it yet.

Is it possible for them to continue lasing that target on their climb out of the target area with the target now behind them as they are flying skyward ?

You see them trying to keep vision on the screen and manoeuvre the button to keep the laser on target while pulling 7-9g's and almost blacking out. I've always thought you would loose lock once you're past the target let alone climbing up and away from it. Can the litening pod see behind you?

[Swift.]

They used ATFLIR, and it depends

[Aussie Pilot]

Yeah I saw they were using that but can it really look behind you while you flying up towards the sky? I thought the gimbal had limits and was more for forward facing.

[Swift.]

27 minutes ago, Aussie Pilot said:

Yeah I saw they were using that but can it really look behind you while you flying up towards the sky? I thought the gimbal had limits and was more for forward facing.

nullReference this as an approximate plot of the ATFLIRs masking limits in DCS. You can see how it can look all the way back to about 40 degrees off the tail.

I know I'm diggin way too much into a film, but remember aswell that the 'apex' of your dive wont be on the target. So you climbing leg may well be displaced far enough towards the ingress direction that you aren't look straight back, but are looking more down.

[Aussie Pilot]

18 hours ago, Swift. said:

 

 but remember as well that the 'apex' of your dive wont be on the target. So you climbing leg may well be displaced far enough towards the ingress direction that you aren't look straight back, but are looking more down.

You know Swift, I didn't even think about this point you made. It all makes sense now. You got to work within the parameters of your Flir and doing as you have said here will work. Clearly I was thinking to hard when questioning this, lol.

Thanks for your answers, they were helpful.

[HawkEXO]

You only have to lase long enough to give the paveway initial guidance, or am I wrong?

[HeavyGun1450]

No, you must lase until the bomb impacts the target for accurate delivery.

[killkenny1]

On 5/29/2022 at 12:59 PM, Aussie Pilot said:

I've just seen the new Top Gun movie, thought it was great, they did a good sequel and there will always be debatable scenes etc I guess but...

My question to those in the know about lasing targets... *POSSIBLE MOVIE SPOILER ALERT* if you haven't seen it yet.

Is it possible for them to continue lasing that target on their climb out of the target area with the target now behind them as they are flying skyward ?

You see them trying to keep vision on the screen and manoeuvre the button to keep the laser on target while pulling 7-9g's and almost blacking out. I've always thought you would loose lock once you're past the target let alone climbing up and away from it. Can the litening pod see behind you?

Don't think so.

IIRC they needed to lase a particular shaft, which was only on one side of the structure. They flew in head on, so once they flew by, you can't see that shaft anymore, so lasing would be imposible.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, it's a dumb summer blockbuster movie (and I don't mean it in a negative way), so who cares. Sit back, relax, and enjoy.

Edited June 5, 2022 by killkenny1

[SharpeXB]

17 hours ago, HawkEXO said:

You only have to lase long enough to give the paveway initial guidance, or am I wrong?

Actually you don’t give the bomb initial guidance, but final guidance. That’s why the laser switches on only for the last 10 seconds. If the bomb tried to guide on the laser from it’s initial drop it would try to fly a straight line at the target instead of a ballistic path as it should. It’s more aerodynamically efficient traveling ballistically. 

Edited June 5, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Fromthedeep]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s why the laser switches on only for the last 10 seconds. If the bomb tried to guide on the laser from it’s initial drop it would try to fly a straight line at the target instead of a ballistic path as it should. It’s more aerodynamically efficient traveling ballistically

Continuous lasing is a very valid technique depending on the specifics of the situation and delay lazing is only mandatory when the bomb would be in an energy deficient state or during a low level loft.

[Dragon1-1]

This is actually highly dependent on the exact munition used. For Paveway II (GBU-10, -12 and -16), you generally want to delay lase, although they can work with continuous lasing, they'll waste energy in such case, and of course when lofting you need to lase when it's coming down. For Paveway III (GBU-24), you need continuous lasing, since it has an autopilot that needs to know the target point to make all the calculations. For LJDAM (GBU-54) and certain advanced versions of Paveway III, you could indeed only lase long enough to give initial guidance and then stop, since they're GPS-guided and only use the laser to either refine the target spot (laser is more accurate than GPS), retarget the bomb mid-flight or track a moving target. However, if you're gonna lase a bomb like that at all, it's better to lase all the way down, since the accuracy won't necessary improve if the seeker only sees the spot from a high altitude.

[Fromthedeep]

8 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

generally want to delay lase, although they can work with continuous lasing, they'll waste energy in such case

For PW2s it works like this:

you must delay lase when:

1.) dropping in a low energy state

2.) low level lofting

you must continuously lase when:

1.) dropping on movers

2.) buddy lazing

3.) compensating against high winds

In any other situation, it has less to do with accuracy and more with terminal velocity against fixed targets. 

[Swift.]

5 hours ago, Fromthedeep said:

For PW2s it works like this:

you must delay lase when:

1.) dropping in a low energy state

2.) low level lofting

you must continuously lase when:

1.) dropping on movers

2.) buddy lazing

3.) compensating against high winds

In any other situation, it has less to do with accuracy and more with terminal velocity against fixed targets. 

Continuous lase for buddy lasing? Where is that coming from?

[Fromthedeep]

15 minutes ago, Swift. said:

Continuous lase for buddy lasing? Where is that coming from?

Klarsnow said it on the Razbam Discord.

[Dragon1-1]

That's really how you do it, since you obviously don't get the bomb TOF on the HUD, so nailing the exact moment you have to start lasing is hard. In fact, in such situations, you start lasing before the bomb is away, this allows the LST to track the point being lased and give the shooter the proper release cue. It's the same as working with JTAC, he'll lase before drop so you can line up and drop on the point he's lasing.