Some Questions About Landing

[SickSidewinder9]

Some aft trim can help sometimes on landing.  I noticed in a crosswind that I can just let it crab on its own and it seems to work.  Very little roll or yaw input until the end to get the wheels to touch down more evenly.

How about that yaw instability after the last few updates?  oof.  They just moved it from high speed to landing.

Edited June 28, 2022 by SickSidewinder9

[MIghtymoo]

4 hours ago, Frederf said:

I usually trim a bit. The FLCS will hold pitch up to 10 AOA so you need a little nose up if you want to approach stick neutral at 11-13 AOA. Trim is a pilot aid, there's no can't/must do about it. You can approach and land with 1G trim if you want but it takes some back pressure to hit the 11-13AOA.

I use 2 clicks "nose up" on the trim during landing. Works very well and was recommended by Wags.

Edited June 28, 2022 by MIghtymoo

[Silvera]

Trimming works during landing, but i was fortunate enough to talk to a real pilot and he told me they don't use trim at all unless FLCS is damaged. He told me the same that viper does not need trimming for landing anyway. So, my aim is not to use trim  Sometimes it's a bit hard to hold the stick back for 13 degrees after touchdown though!

2 hours ago, MIghtymoo said:

I use 2 clicks "nose up" on the trim during landing. Works very well and was recommended by Wags.

 

Hi Mightymoo,

He never mentioned about trimming in his videos though as i watched those videos 500 times?  Are you sure?

Edited June 28, 2022 by Silvera

[Jackjack171]

I don't remember Wag's saying that either. It is in Chucks guide as well that you do not trim for landing.

[Bremspropeller]

3 hours ago, Silvera said:

talk to a real pilot and he told me they don't use trim at all unless FLCS is damaged.

On a tangent: With FLCS commanding roll-rate, shouldn't asymmetric loadouts work without trim-input? I have always wondered in the Hornet and Viper why they're requiring roll-trim in those instances.

[Frederf]

No, you need roll/yaw trim in stores asymmetry. It's a common misconception that FLCS magically sorts out such effects.

[AngryViper.101]

My two cents worth, that video posted above, "tame your viper" helped me a lot.

My checklist prior to landing:

1. drop landing gear

2. trim nose up about 5 notches - key presses ...

3. keep speed between 200 and 240 

4. ensure CAT III is selected, not CAT I (shout if you do not know what I am talking about)

(this seems to reduce the sensitivity of controls, especially at low speeds?)

5. I always use a tool from github: https://github.com/aronCiucu/DCSTheWay/releases/tag/v1.5.1

5.1 I then pick / create a steering point +- 5 miles from the runway i want to land and autopilot to that point.

5.2 Also pre-create a steering point on the runway number that I want to land on 

5.3 I thus auto pilot to the first point 5 nm out and then manually fly toward sthe 2nd steer point on the runway (aiming point, not landing point)

6. Then about 2 / 3 miles out I only drop the landing gear

7. by then the aircraft is pointing towards correct runway and i am about 2,000 - 1,500 feet altitude and also 235 knots speed +- 

8. then i land flawlessly even with keyboard - BUT taking note of what was said in the video regarding 11 degrees angle of attack and also putting the flight path marker FPM above the 5 degree line ...

 

let me know if you want a track or more information. 

[MIghtymoo]

11 hours ago, Silvera said:

Trimming works during landing, but i was fortunate enough to talk to a real pilot and he told me they don't use trim at all unless FLCS is damaged. He told me the same that viper does not need trimming for landing anyway. So, my aim is not to use trim  Sometimes it's a bit hard to hold the stick back for 13 degrees after touchdown though!

Hi Mightymoo,

He never mentioned about trimming in his videos though as i watched those videos 500 times?  Are you sure?

 

I will not stand under oath and claim that as universal truth, but I usually have a pretty good memory (I think ). May have mistaken Wags saying it, is I have been watching tons of tutorials over the last few years.

Someone said it (maybe Wags? ), and it works perfectly during landings so I trim…

[Aquorys]

3 hours ago, warford said:

My two cents worth, that video posted above, "tame your viper" helped me a lot.

My checklist prior to landing:

1. drop landing gear

2. trim nose up about 5 notches - key presses ...

3. keep speed between 200 and 240 

4. ensure CAT III is selected, not CAT I (shout if you do not know what I am talking about)

(this seems to reduce the sensitivity of controls, especially at low speeds?)

CAT III gives you less AoA and about 40% decreased roll rate compared to CAT I, but the FLCS changes control laws and sensitivity of controls based on various factors in both configurations. I'm not sure why you would want to be in CAT III with a CAT I loadout.

With the landing gear down, you're in landing gains anyway, and those are already less sensitive than cruise gains.

 

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6. Then about 2 / 3 miles out I only drop the landing gear

Didn't you just say in 1.) that you already had it extended?

 

Quote

 

7. by then the aircraft is pointing towards correct runway and i am about 2,000 - 1,500 feet altitude and also 235 knots speed +- 

 

At 2 to 3 miles, you should be at ~600-1000 ft and ~160-200 knots for a stable approach, unless you are doing a steep approach for whatever reason (terrain, MANPADS threat, etc.), but that would typically be done at a lower speed

 

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5.1 I then pick / create a steering point +- 5 miles from the runway i want to land and autopilot to that point.

You don't really need that one, as long as you have the runway and approach course. Both of those are on the kneeboard maps for the Caucasus and Nevada maps. Once you have that, you can just select the radial according to the approach course and use the course deviation indicator and distance measuring equipment to fly the approach. Optionally, if an ILS is available, you can intercept the localizer and glideslope for the ILS approach. The Nevada map even comes with a couple IFR charts for various approaches.

[Bremspropeller]

20 hours ago, Frederf said:

No, you need roll/yaw trim in stores asymmetry. It's a common misconception that FLCS magically sorts out such effects.

So stick-position doesn't command roll-rate, after all?

Also, with FLCS providing auto-rudder at high AoA into a given roll-input, why can it not provide a zero sideslip at higher speeds/ lower AoA in an asymmetric stores config?

Just trying to understand the control-architecture.

[Frederf]

It's rate based but doesn't react to roll rate in that absolute manner. Why it wasn't made that way I dunno. The misconception is persistent mostly because we can imagine the system being designed so it would hold 0 AOB rate so rigidly so vividly.

[Steel Jaw]

Do we not trim the Hornet for landing on the boat?

[RuskyV]

4 hours ago, Steel Jaw said:

Do we not trim the Hornet for landing on the boat?

It’s not about the Hornet, your in the F16 forum 

[Steel Jaw]

7 hours ago, RuskyV said:

It’s not about the Hornet, your in the F16 forum 

Oh, well I fly that too and, no, under normal circumstances no trimming is needed.

[RuskyV]

I trim and it helps me land, those are good enough circumstances for me to want to do it. If it helps others too then why not…