>>> TRACK IR at the rescue <<<

[NaturalPoint - Seth]

I forgot to add:

 

What a great idea, on the part of the thread starter! We love our community for reasons just like this!

[Prophet]

I went from the 3 to the 4, and gave my 3 away. I won a 4 at Fighter Ops and gave that away also.

 

FreeTrack? I prefer to invest in people that actually make products.

 

Without NaturalPoint, FreeTrack would have had nothing to steal.

Edited January 2, 2009 by =Prophet=

[815TooCooL]

 

FreeTrack? I prefer to invest in people that actually make products.

 

Without NaturalPoint, FreeTrack would have had nothing to steal.

Well Said. :thumbup:

[aledmb]

Without NaturalPoint, FreeTrack would have had nothing to steal.

 

i disagree.

head tracking is a well known technology nowadays.

[Prophet]

Then you misread.

 

FreeTrack has made nothing. They have only hacked an existing program. If NaturalPoint had never made their product, and had not taken the time and expense to get companies to implement the interface (that FreeTrack stole) then FreeTrack would have nothing.

 

Zip, Ziltch, Nada.

 

Heck for some game to work with FreeTrack you have to have the NP software installed...

 

And that is why they are all pissy about NP encrypting the data stream with the new software, because they cant hack it without a lot of work if at all.

 

Get ready for this thread to be locked. Great intentions by the OP though!

Edited January 2, 2009 by =Prophet=

[aledmb]

no...

then you misunderstood what freetrack is!

 

freetrack has it's own interface (which games can support

or not) and also outputs in trackir's interface (so that games

which only support trackir can understand it).

 

would you say that openoffice stole microsoft's formats?

no! it has it's own formats and also enables users to

manipulate documents in microsoft's formats.

 

hope i made it clear this time.

 

edit: you can lock anything anytime. cheers!

[aledmb]

now, how's one supposed to steal an interface?

[Prophet]

FreeTrack is not its own interface. If that is what you believe than you are smoking some good stuff.

 

They even admit they stole the interface from NP.

 

That GUI you see is just that a GUI to the actual interface. The only thing they have made was the GUI.

 

Why would FT not work on BS when the data stream is encrypted? Hmmm.

[aledmb]

man, i know freetrack.

i'll not argue here anymore.

just know that you can run it without outputting to trackir standards.

[Prophet]

You are wrong.

 

How does FT work for TIR enhanced titles? It uses the TIR standard.....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetrack

 

TrackIR controversy

 

NaturalPoint Inc., the makers of TrackIR, believe that the use of FreeTrack to gain view control in TrackIR Enhanced software is a violation of their copyright.

FreeTrack is free open source software.[6] Most TrackIR Enhanced software need to be provided with text strings which bear notice of "EyeControl Technologies" copyright (former name of NaturalPoint, Inc.) in order to activate the TrackIR Enhanced interface. Software which requires these text strings for interface activation also contain the strings themselves. At NaturalPoint's request, FreeTrack project members removed the strings from the software they provide to end users. FreeTrack then implemented a workaround which creates a local copy of these strings from the client software when used with TrackIR Enhanced titles. FreeTrack project members argue that copyright is not violated in this case since it may fall under the provision of 17 U.S.C. § 117. The text strings are a necessary and functional part of the interface which FreeTrack project members believe makes them exempt from copyright for the purposes of interoperability.[7]

NaturalPoint started using an encrypted data stream in version 4.1.036 of their TrackIR software, this made it more difficult for third party software like FreeTrack to interface with TrackIR Enhanced software titles.[8] The first game to require the new data stream is DCS: Black Shark[9] but a fix is available to make it compatible with FreeTrack.[10]

 

Essentially their workaround is just reverse engineering the enhanced interface to get the text strings they want. And that is why they must use the convoluted method to work with BS that is encrypted.

 

Now if you actually go and read 17 USC 117 you will see it has nothing to do with what FT thinks it does. That USC applies to individuals who already OWN the product and wish to modify the program for use. FT doesnt OWN the NP software. The people who are using the modified software do not OWN a TIR.

 

And like I said, if NP had never worked with these companies to get TIR supported, FT would have nothing to work with. They are just riding the back of someone elses hard work.

Edited January 2, 2009 by =Prophet=

[aledmb]

from their site:

"FreeTrack can output head tracking data directly

using TrackIR™, SimConnect and FSUIPC interfaces,

programs that support these interfaces are

regarded as having FreeTrack support."

You are wrong.

 

How does FT work for TIR enhanced titles? It uses the TIR standard.....

 

i'm not. how does openoffice handle documents in the latest

msword format? it tries to interpret and use that format. so,

what's being stolen in both cases???

 

...check. :smilewink:

[Prophet]

Apples and Oranges.

 

Word and OpenOffice have nothing to do with this topic.

 

The more important question is why such a workaround is needed as PPJoy and all that with BS? Because the data stream is encrypted. If FT wasnt trying to hack that data stream why would it matter if it was encrypted or not?

 

The fact is that if NP had not done all of the work, FT would have nothing to work with. FT are nothing but half ass posers. The only reason they have support is because the majority of people lack strong morals and when they see something is cheaper they dont care how it was done, only that it is cheaper.

[aledmb]

so, still talking about oranges... what would openoffice do if microsoft encrypted

the latest msword document format? they would have 2 choices:

 

1. try to figure out a way to read, edit and save in

that format (which is not illegal) or

 

2. just quit (which is not what they're here for).

 

so, getting back to apples, do you think openoffice guys are nothing but half

ass posers? as with the msword format, trackir has a large number of users.

as with the openoffice license, freetrack is free. what that bunch of half ass

posers want is to offer a way to interface people who don't want to spend a

lot of money on a thing that can be free (including hardware at low cost) with

games that are helping a monopoly business (as the oranges case we were

talking about).

 

i know one thing for sure - time is telling us that it's not illegal (in both

oranges and apples cases).

[Prophet]

Yawn...

 

Again with an irrelevant comparison. What OO does is not the same as what FT is doing. And wanting it to be the same doesn't make it so.

 

NP has not taken FT to court, so how do you know the courts do not consider it illegal. I already showed you how the USC they think protects them, doesn't. I could even elaborate more for you, but I know it is pointless.

Edited January 2, 2009 by =Prophet=

[aledmb]

just for the sake of irrelevantly comparing oranges and apples for the last time,

 

1. i know microsoft office is the best software to work with microsoft's format.

2. i know openoffice works, is legal and is cheaper.

3. don't blame openoffice for developing their software, 'cause they're not criminals.

4. don't blame anyone who's using openoffice, 'cause they're not criminals either.

5. i will continue to use openoffice as long as i don't have enough money to buy microsoft's solution.

6. i'll buy microsoft's when i have the money, 'cause i know they're the best.

 

1. i know trackir is the best software/hardware to work with trackir interface.

2. i know freetrack works, is legal and is cheaper.

3. don't blame freetrack for developing their software, 'cause they're not criminals.

4. don't blame anyone who's using freetrack, 'cause they're not criminals either.

5. i will continue to use freetrack as long as i don't have enough money to buy naturalpoint's solution.

6. i'll buy trackir when i have the money, 'cause i know they're the best.

 

thank you sir.

sorry for taking your time.

i'll spend mine on that ka-50 right there!

good time talking to you.

see ya!

[Francous]

Now helping a community is to give choices and advices to member sim pilots and to see what it is possible to do with once again the heart of our community.

Arguing about products does "not" help instead looking to donate, inspires others.

Thank you NaturalPoint to read this thread and as always in the past you guys always been involved, Thank you as well to ED/DCS to permit this post to exist in this forum.

To me flying alone is not as enjoyable then sharing flights with others , We as Flight Simmers are a minority so lets keep ourselves the best we can be.

Thank you for understanding

[aledmb]

piece bro!

[Prophet]

just for the sake of irrelevantly comparing oranges and apples for the last time,

 

1. i know microsoft office is the best software to work with microsoft's format.

2. i know openoffice works, is legal and is cheaper.

3. don't blame openoffice for developing their software, 'cause they're not criminals.

4. don't blame anyone who's using openoffice, 'cause they're not criminals either.

5. i will continue to use openoffice as long as i don't have enough money to buy microsoft's solution.

6. i'll buy microsoft's when i have the money, 'cause i know they're the best.

 

1. i know trackir is the best software/hardware to work with trackir interface.

2. i know freetrack works, is legal and is cheaper.

3. don't blame freetrack for developing their software, 'cause they're not criminals.

4. don't blame anyone who's using freetrack, 'cause they're not criminals either.

5. i will continue to use freetrack as long as i don't have enough money to buy naturalpoint's solution.

6. i'll buy trackir when i have the money, 'cause i know they're the best.

 

thank you sir.

sorry for taking your time.

i'll spend mine on that ka-50 right there!

good time talking to you.

see ya!

 

You assume that FreeTrack is legal merely because it has not been challenged in court.

 

Lack of something does not prove the existence of something else. That is poor logic.

 

Just because the RIAA is not going after individuals for pirating music and movies doesn't mean it is legal, yet using your logic it would be.

 

Yes as flight simmers we are a very small community. We should be supporting those people and companies that actually give something to the community instead of taking what others have done.

 

Maybe NP could offer software for a charge that was compatible with any webcam. But then I am sure there are some who would still whine about it.

 

Would CH stand by if I hacked their software to work with my Saitek that has really poor software? Doubt it.

Edited January 2, 2009 by =Prophet=

[sbern]

Prophet,

 

there's no stealing involved here. the Freetrack guys probably asked for a copy of the trackir sdk here:

 

http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/05-developers/developers-pc-game-simulation-sdk.html

 

from there, building up your own code to mimic the same trackir API isn't too hard. It's really the way open source implementations of all kinds of proprietary software happen and it's not illegal. The openoffice/word comparison isn't too far off track. I wouldn't say it's apples to oranges at all.

 

As far as IP goes, naturalpoint didn't invent head tracking, they were just the first (as far as I know of) to make a solid, working consumer product out of it. It was inevitable that someone else would make software to do the same thing and then give instructions on how to make the hardware.

 

Naturalpoint has two options here... make a product that's so much better than what hobbyists can do on their own that people buy it, or try and block the competition out by closing up their interface and playing hardball with game developers. Unfortunately, they appear to have chosen the latter and that never works. Remember 3dfx and Glide? Remember when the good people at AOL kept trying to make the AIM protocol impossible to talk to with jabber etc? Everybody gives up eventually... the smart ones figure out a way to make a buck off having a bunch of new users who weren't interested in their original product.

 

I'd like to see Naturalpoint start selling just their hardware for use with freetrack at a lower cost. I have to assume they spend a lot of resources messing with the software (support, etc) that they could let the freetrack guys or the open source community at large deal with and focus on the cameras and clips.

 

sbern.

 

ps. I get 100 fps with my wiimote freetrack setup and it's really low latency..

Edited January 3, 2009 by sbern

[Acedy]

NP has not taken FT to court, so how do you know the courts do not consider it illegal.

 

That is exactly the point. If any of both side feels that the other infringed their rights, they can take it to court and let the judges decide. Until then nobody is guilty of anything, and that's why the accusations here have to stop now. Listen fellas, let Natural Point and the Free Track devs take care of their own business, they do not need anybody as their advocates.

 

Thanks for your understanding.

[Quarrion]

That is exactly the point. If any of both side feels that the other infringed their rights, they can take it to court and let the judges decide. Until then nobody is guilty of anything, and that's why the accusations here have to stop now. Listen fellas, let Natural Point and the Free Track devs take care of their own business, they do not need anybody as their advocates.

 

They DO need advocates.

 

I haven't seen any FreeTrack devs make accusations of any sort, they do what they do for free, not only could they not afford court action but why would they even consider it?

 

Anti-competitive behavior is more serious than just a civil issue, with involved parties taking each other to court, it's CRIMINAL, so the US Goverment takes businesses to court on behalf of its citizens. Or, at least, it is meant to, the difficult part is informing them and providing enough evidence for them to be able to take action. This is something that is intrisically difficult due to the secrecy involved in anti-competitive behavior.

 

Remember anti-competitive behavior violates the rights of ALL consumers. This makes it a public matter, not a private one between parties.

[Prophet]

Sounds to me that NP needs advocates to protect from the FREELOADERS!

 

It is not anti-competative. It is protecting hard work. FT has more than enough right to go and lobby game manufacturers to support THEIR interface. Not one they stole.

 

What game supports a Free Track interface? What is that? NONE! Because FreeTrack is freeloading off others. They need the game to support SOMEONE elses work.

[Prophet]

That is exactly the point. If any of both side feels that the other infringed their rights, they can take it to court and let the judges decide. Until then nobody is guilty of anything, and that's why the accusations here have to stop now. Listen fellas, let Natural Point and the Free Track devs take care of their own business, they do not need anybody as their advocates.

 

Thanks for your understanding.

 

Is that why ED has taken the step they have? Because they agree with this statement?

 

Right. They didnt want to be on the wrong end if there was litigation.

[aledmb]

Is that why ED has taken the step they have?

Because they agree with this statement?

 

maybe naturalpoint is supporting dcs development.

could be as simple as that.

[Winder]

Yes as flight simmers we are a very small community. We should be supporting those people and companies that actually give something to the community instead of taking what others have done.

Great point. I agree completely. It's not like NaturalPoint is Microsoft or General Electric. They're a relatively small business serving a pretty small market. Why penalize them for sustaining their profitability just because they cost a bit more than a webcam? (It's not like webcam manufactures are giving FreeTrack users support in games! Of course they can make their units for less money.) If another company wants to provide a similar technology, support it with R&D, tech support, developer relations, etc... so be it! The more the merrier. FreeTrack is different. Yes, they have their own interface. How many games does it support? How many does the TrackIR interface support? About a hundred or so more than FT. So, who is really giving us (*all* of us) the support? Even FreeTrack users depend entirely on TrackIR. They just don't have to pay for it like you and I did.

 

Prophet,

 

there's no stealing involved here. the Freetrack guys probably asked for a copy of the trackir sdk here:

 

http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/05-developers/developers-pc-game-simulation-sdk.html

 

from there, building up your own code to mimic the same trackir API isn't too hard. It's really the way open source implementations of all kinds of proprietary software happen and it's not illegal. The openoffice/word comparison isn't too far off track. I wouldn't say it's apples to oranges at all.

I have a feeling that that's exactly what happened. "Oh, hi there NaturalPoint... hey, um, I'm on the development team for this new awesome flight sim. Can you send me your SDK so I can implement TrackIR in it? Oh, you will? Gee, thanks!" *snicker, snicker*

 

You're dead on accurate, I bet. Except with one thing: "It's not illegal." Really? Have you ever heard of a EULA? Click through license agreement? Etc...??? I think you should try to track down a copy of the TrackIR SDK license agreement. Considering the fact that NP went through the effort of copyrighting the relevant text strings that the FreeTrack software retrieves (without permission), I have a sneaking suspician that they prohibit making derivative software in their license agreement. Which would make the situation that you described quite illegal, indeed.

 

The point isn't how difficult or simple it is. It obviously wasn't too difficult, since the FT guys succeeded. But that has nothing to do with whether it's right or wrong.

 

I'd like to see Naturalpoint start selling just their hardware for use with freetrack at a lower cost. I have to assume they spend a lot of resources messing with the software (support, etc) that they could let the freetrack guys or the open source community at large deal with and focus on the cameras and clips.

I shudder at that thought. I've been trying to get FreeTrack running to its fullest potential, for my own testing purposes. I've had numerous problems, and I've asked for help on their forums, only to be directed to the FAQs. "Thanks." Look, I don't begrudge them at all for the lack of support. It's free software, and any help that's provided is done so for free. But, there's no way that a couple of guys in France and Australia can handle the support burden of the entire TrackIR and FreeTrack communities in their spare time. When you need help with a TrackIR, you can call NaturalPoint and have someone on the other line within 15 seconds. No comparison.

 

That is exactly the point. If any of both side feels that the other infringed their rights, they can take it to court and let the judges decide. Until then nobody is guilty of anything, and that's why the accusations here have to stop now. Listen fellas, let Natural Point and the Free Track devs take care of their own business, they do not need anybody as their advocates.

 

Thanks for your understanding.

Unless one of the parties is hiding behind forum handles and Internet anonymity. Wonder which one that is? ;)

 

I understand that, in the States at least, we are innocent until proven guilty, as far as the law is concerned. But that's not actually the case, in reality, right? If I go download a pirated copy of Black Shark, and I don't get caught (ergo, I don't get prosecuted), am I not in the wrong? If this is ED's position, I'm sure many of your customers would love to be informed. We could have saved some money.

 

I'm just playing devil's advocate to make a point, but don't worry... I would choose to reward you guys for your effort, in either case. Seems like the right thing to do? ;)

 

They DO need advocates.

 

I haven't seen any FreeTrack devs make accusations of any sort, they do what they do for free, not only could they not afford court action but why would they even consider it?

No kidding... I wonder why they don't take NP to court? Well, golly. It's just so hard to figure out... NaturalPoint: "Wait, wait, wait... you guys are suing us? For "anti-competitive" behavior? Lovely. Take a bite out of our copyright infringement counter suit. Tastes nice, hmmm?" That case would be so open and shut. I know all about your "interoperability" arguments. Do you really think you can exactly copy an interface (while, in the process, violating the very license agreement that allowed you access to it), call it a "competing product," and then claim that locking it out is an interoperability issue? Developers have a right to protect themselves from their hardware interfacing with software that pirates their own, which is basically what FreeTrack is doing (if not in name, at least in form).

 

Sounds to me that NP needs advocates to protect from the FREELOADERS!

 

It is not anti-competative. It is protecting hard work. FT has more than enough right to go and lobby game manufacturers to support THEIR interface. Not one they stole.

 

What game supports a Free Track interface? What is that? NONE! Because FreeTrack is freeloading off others. They need the game to support SOMEONE elses work.

 

Quoted for truth.

 

maybe naturalpoint is supporting dcs development.

could be as simple as that.

I think that much is clear. What 6DOF technology has ED supported from the beginning? Or any other developer, for that matter? Basically every game that has implemented 6DOF head tracking uses TrackIR. Why? Because NP are the ones that made it commercially viable. They are the ones that created an SDK to make integration simple. They gave it all to ED. Why would ED turn around and flip them the bird for it? That makes no sense.