Optional Refueling Assist

[shagrat]

vor einer Stunde schrieb SharpeXB:

It affects my DCS experience because the effort to create something like this takes time away from other development priorities. I’d rather have a dynamic campaign or Vulkan API or multi core support or literally any other feature in DCS. Otherwise I really wouldn’t care about this feature as long as it was mission/server controlled. And I don’t see why DCS needs this since AAR isn’t required to play the game. 

So as you can't answer the original question, we are full circle to the nonsense argument of "taking ressources away from my beloved feature, which is way more important than everything else", again, so ressources like "the reception desk" could do a lot more important work like "an Artificial Intelligence/Automation specialist".

Just an idea: the parameter, that controls the local clientside "snap to contact" for the basket or boom, could be a variable that you could adjust. Or use the existing "lock controls" feature, let the AI do AAR and "unlock" again...

I am sure the guy(s) that work on the AAR overhaul, can do this.

In the end it is about what features ED puts on the list to improve DCS.

Nobody ever requested take-off assist, ED decided it is a helpful feature.

As for the not required to play DCS argument:  better missile guidance or fusing options aren't exactly necessary to play DCS, either. Actually we played DCS without it for over a decade... We sure don't want to only do stuff that is strictly necessary to "play"?

That is actually what sets DCS apart from a lot of other titles... The little things, the developers do, because they can and like, instead of only what is necessary to play.

[shagrat]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Varioss:

I sure hope it's gonna get implemented without the ability to block it so people like you will complain more.

We should hope ED does implement it in a way that it's flexible enough, so everyone can enjoy, the style of simulation he likes.

I don't want to take the realism SharpeXB likes away, by no means! I want to add an option to help others to enjoy maybe better learn stuff.

We are not here to decide how others should enjoy their favorite simulation, that was a major point, I made.

[Varioss]

31 minutes ago, shagrat said:

We should hope ED does implement it in a way that it's flexible enough, so everyone can enjoy, the style of simulation he likes.

I don't want to take the realism SharpeXB likes away, by no means! I want to add an option to help others to enjoy maybe better learn stuff.

We are not here to decide how others should enjoy their favorite simulation, that was a major point, I made.

Yes that's what I mean. Everybody should play like they want. I can feel a lot of servers will turn that option off and it won't change anything.

[freehand]

The amount of time people have taken to type and respond in this thread they could have mastered AAR lol.

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, freehand said:

The amount of time people have taken to type and respond in this thread they could have mastered AAR lol.

Exactly

[shagrat]

vor 59 Minuten schrieb freehand:

The amount of time people have taken to type and respond in this thread they could have mastered AAR lol.

Nope, tried that a couple times. Didn't work in 30 minutes, neither in 60 minutes, or after 20 hrs over the years... If you have to take a one week break in-between, you basically start again.

[SharpeXB]

9 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Nope, tried that a couple times. Didn't work in 30 minutes, neither in 60 minutes, or after 20 hrs over the years... If you have to take a one week break in-between, you basically start again.

Seriously? It took me perhaps two weeks of practice. I learned on the A-10C but since this is never needed on that plane I didn’t do it again until about 6-7 years later in the Hornet. But knowing how already it only took 4-5 sessions to get it. I still don’t do it very often but I really never forget how. It’s a persistent skill that applies to the other aircraft as well. It’s like riding a bike, once you get it you won’t unlearn it since it’s all reflex. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by SharpeXB

[ST0RM]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Seriously? It took me perhaps two weeks of practice and just like riding a bicycle the skill remains. I learned on the A-10C but since this is never needed on that plane I didn’t do it again until six years later in the Hornet. But knowing how already it only took 4-5 sessions to get it. I still never do it very often but I really never forget how. It’s a persistent skill that applies to the other aircraft as well. It’s like riding a bike, once you get it you won’t unlearn it since it’s all reflex. 

Some people just want the easy way through life. And then shout down the ones who oppose them. Sure hope that ED sees one of their employees badgering another on their opposing opinion, and deals with him accordingly. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by ST0RM

[shagrat]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb SharpeXB:

Seriously? It took me perhaps two weeks of practice. I learned on the A-10C but since this is never needed on that plane I didn’t do it again until about 6-7 years later in the Hornet. But knowing how already it only took 4-5 sessions to get it. I still don’t do it very often but I really never forget how. It’s a persistent skill that applies to the other aircraft as well. It’s like riding a bike, once you get it you won’t unlearn it since it’s all reflex. 

 

Good for you. Seems you are a natural or have better equipment.

For me it is different. I can manage to get close, then either the tanker starts an (unannounced) turn, or I miss and need to reposition, fight with the F-Menu to get another "Ready pre-contact", etc. and honestly, after a couple of my precious DCS hours wasted with frustration instead of something enjoyable, I tend to fly a mission instead. Try again after a couple months, rinse and repeat.

That's why I would love to have the "contact box" adjustable. This could enable newcomers to AAR to manage at least to get the intial contact easier, train positioning, holding formation once in a while. It would also enable us to dial the box size down after we get more comfortable and actually improve with a less steep curve and less frustration.

Edited October 5, 2022 by shagrat

[shagrat]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb ST0RM:

Some people just want the easy way through life. And then shout down the ones who oppose them. Sure hope that ED sees one of their employees badgering another on their opposing opinion, and deals with him accordingly. 

I am neither an employee of Eagle Dynamics, nor do I shout down anyone.

Please revisit my posts and read what I wrote.

Edited October 5, 2022 by shagrat

[Varioss]

33 minutes ago, ST0RM said:

Some people just want the easy way through life. And then shout down the ones who oppose them. Sure hope that ED sees one of their employees badgering another on their opposing opinion, and deals with him accordingly. 

 

And some people are stuck in the past refusing to let go of outdated ways of thinking. shrug

[SharpeXB]

18 minutes ago, Varioss said:

And some people are stuck in the past refusing to let go of outdated ways of thinking. shrug

Says the “participation trophy” generation

[SharpeXB]

33 minutes ago, shagrat said:

after a couple of my precious DCS hours wasted with frustration instead of something enjoyable, I tend to fly a mission instead. Try again after a couple months, rinse and repeat.

Yep sounds familiar.. that’s the point where it seems impossible. The you’ll “get it” and it sticks. The breakthrough for me was driving my car after another fruitless session and realizing I could fly formation with the car in front of me. Making small corrections on the gas pedal and steering wheel. Gee… why can’t I do this in DCS…? aha but I can… Those good instructional films from WWII relate flying to stuff people already know how to do like automobiles and bicycles, and they’re right. This seems foreign to us either because we aren’t pilots or it’s using unfamiliar controls but it’s exactly the same skill. Nearly every person can ride a bicycle and it’s not some special gift or ability. Just practice. 

[Exorcet]

2 hours ago, freehand said:

The amount of time people have taken to type and respond in this thread they could have mastered AAR lol.

Would that make me a double master?

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Seriously? It took me perhaps two weeks of practice. I learned on the A-10C but since this is never needed on that plane I didn’t do it again until about 6-7 years later in the Hornet. But knowing how already it only took 4-5 sessions to get it. I still don’t do it very often but I really never forget how. It’s a persistent skill that applies to the other aircraft as well. It’s like riding a bike, once you get it you won’t unlearn it since it’s all reflex. 

 

You never answered my question about making your own sim. It's been done, so stop wasting time leeching off ED's work and go make your flight sim. It's easy trust me, I had to simulate a race car going around a track when I designed an aero package for it back in college. It was on a laptop and only with MATHLAB. It only took me a couple of months. Why are you squandering the opportunity to learn something important just for instant gratification?

1 hour ago, ST0RM said:

Some people just want the easy way through life. And then shout down the ones who oppose them. Sure hope that ED sees one of their employees badgering another on their opposing opinion, and deals with him accordingly. 

 

So when are you selling your computer, cancelling your internet service, and going to be a hunter gatherer in the wood? Wouldn't want to take the easy the path in life with a job and currency to pay for conveniences. I mean life is all about being tough and taking on challenges 24/7 and if you don't do that there is something wrong with you, or did I misread your statement?

Let me just correct you, some people live by logic. They don't make a contest out of everything to show their superiority off compared to others, especially when that superiority exists only in their heads. Why not just entertain the idea that a world exists beyond your walls.

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Says the “participation trophy” generation

Again, you argue against your own imagination.

[Varioss]

24 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Says the “participation trophy” generation

What are you even on about? This is not an competition. I assure you nobody cares that you can ARR. Why are you turning everything into a dick measuring contest to show how better you are then everybody else? Again, superiority complex much?

[SharpeXB]

40 minutes ago, Varioss said:

I assure you nobody cares that you can ARR.

It must bother someone, how are we on page 3 of this, yet another “this game is too hard” thread…?
I guess putting in some effort and accepting a challenge are “outdated ways of thinking”

Edited October 5, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Exorcet]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It must bother someone, how are we on page 3 of this, yet another “this game is too hard” thread…?
I guess putting in some effort and accepting a challenge are “outdated ways of thinking”

 

The thread continues because you keep repeating yourself despite being refuted constantly. Even in the very post I quoted. You can't come up with an argument, so you pretend that people disagreeing with you can't put effort into things.

Ironically, you're avoiding putting effort into making your own flight sim by using an existing product.

[ST0RM]

5 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

The thread continues because you keep repeating yourself despite being refuted constantly. Even in the very post I quoted. You can't come up with an argument, so you pretend that people disagreeing with you can't put effort into things.

Refuted by the same three. 
And your own argument for, includes the reasoning that people dont have the time to put in the effort to learn the correct way to do it. Shagrat himself says he'd rather spend that limited time, flying a mission and not practicing something. So it kind of proves the point that people aren't putting in the effort. 
We dont see eye to eye, so whatever. We dont want to see efforts being taken away for something that a small number of people may use, but will most definitely be turned off on M/P servers. You say it wont take away efforts and is a simple add. In the end, ED will decide. 

[Exorcet]

11 minutes ago, ST0RM said:

Refuted by the same three.

Who does the refuting doesn't matter. Refuted is refuted.

11 minutes ago, ST0RM said:

And your own argument for, includes the reasoning that people dont have the time to put in the effort to learn the correct way to do it.

My own argument? I haven't really made any in this thread. I've just pointed out the holes in some of the opposing arguments. The closest thing I have to an argument is not caring how people playing. If the AAR assist existed, it wouldn't impact in any way. If people want it let them have it.

11 minutes ago, ST0RM said:

Shagrat himself says he'd rather spend that limited time, flying a mission and not practicing something. So it kind of proves the point that people aren't putting in the effort.

No, it shows that people have different availabilities, aptitudes, and preferences. It is not at all surprising to me that someone would prefer flying missions to practicing AAR. DCS is entertainment. Typically, people try to enjoy entertainment. Why is there this obsession with effort? There is no mandatory amount of effort that needs to be sacrificed to become worthy to install the sim. There is no point discussing effort. If people want to put zero effort into their sim, that is completely acceptable. If people have put in effort but found that their skills don't cut it, that is completely acceptable. If someone has completely mastered AAR and wants an assist for whatever reason, that is completely acceptable. No one out of those 3 is more deserving than the others, nor is there any indication of lazyness on anyone's part, unless maybe you think these people live in the sim and do nothing else with their lives.

I replied to one of your posts earlier asking why you're not a hunter gatherer. Surely living that way would take more effort than comfy modern life. Yet here you are with an internet connection, choosing to take a low effort path and then turning around and complaining when other people do the exact same thing you're doing (according to your standards anyway).

11 minutes ago, ST0RM said:

We dont see eye to eye, so whatever.

Differing opinions are natural. No one cares when people don't agree. What is a problem is intellectual dishonesty. It's certainly eyebrow raising to see someone come into a thread and declare that people that don't do things their way are lazy and horrible and then see them jump to a completely different argument when their original is shut down for being ridiculous and hypocritical.

11 minutes ago, ST0RM said:

We dont want to see efforts being taken away for something that a small number of people may use

And where is the count on how many would use it that you're basing your argument on?

Now the argument on game resources is, as always, a valid one, so let me address that and show that it's essentially a non issue in this case.

Firstly ED is redoing the AAR model. Someone is assigned to be working on it. You're too late to stop this from happening. Since the work time is already allotted, it would only make sense to add an AAR assist now so it takes the minimum amount of resources from ED.

In addition to the above, the game already features ways of handling AAR assist. The AI has been coded to be able to take over for any player aircraft. ED could modify this feature to include having the AI refuel for the player.

Feature added, cost approximately zero. So now I'd think we'd all agree there is no reason to argue against the assist now right?

Did you see my reply to Sharpe where I mentioned coding a race car simulation? I was part of the race team's aerodynamics team. Do you want to know how much my aero simulation cost the chassis team? Nothing. They were independent projects. Well actually if you think deeper, it was a benefit to the chassis team. My aero package increased their tier's maximum grip. So working on more stuff actually had a negative cost in a way. The same can be true here. AAR assist could make more accessible missions and campaigns, leading to higher player satisfaction.

11 minutes ago, ST0RM said:

but will most definitely be turned off on M/P servers.

That is the entire point of options.

Many servers turn off many things.

Why should that factor into whether something should be added to DCS?

Should DCS not have options at all? If servers turn off a feature should the devs delete that feature?

11 minutes ago, ST0RM said:

You say it wont take away efforts and is a simple add. In the end, ED will decide. 

It is a simple add for so many reasons. ED of course will decide when it gets added. I think it's good to remind them of popular ideas.

[SharpeXB]

17 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Refuted is refuted

Well that’s a matter of opinion… 

Edited October 5, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Tank50us]

One other thing I thought of after the fact, is how this feature could help those who already can refuel consistently... How many of you have pets? Or how many of you get packages delivered at random times during the day? Sure. In single player, it's easy, pause the game, go deal with the hairball, while grabbing the amazon package, and come back. But when you're online? On a server that only ever does Long-run missions and cold-starts? Yeah, when you're 4hrs into a 6hr mission, and Amazon decides that the best time to knock on your door just as you connect to the basket... having that feature could salvage that entire mission for you. Sure, it's a niche situation, but at the very least you can still deal with real life occurrences with such a feature enabled. At the same time, it would still allow those who are having issues to at least keep pace with those who do it blindfolded.

Also, the "Just practice" argument does have one area where it doesn't hold water. How many people work unpredictable schedules, but still play DCS? It's one thing if you work a straight shift, with a straight forward work week. But not everyone actually has that luxury. To speak from personal experience, I can tell ya that my job can throw a wrench in any plan I make with little effort. From dealing with last second security issues that add another few hours to my pay, to responding to major natural disasters... There are things that are very unpredictable about my job. Heck, right now, I can't play DCS because I've been deployed away from home. Guess who isn't going to be doing much practicing.

As for anyone calling those who are well versed "Elitists" because they say the subject is easy... I think it's more that they're looking at the subject through rose tinted glasses (we all do it), They may simply not remember how difficult it was for them to finally pull off, and so they consider it a fairly easy thing to do. That being said, I don't demonize those people for it. But I will have some words for those who wish to make everyone share in their struggle, because they were able to do it that way, so everyone else should. I guess because landing on a carrier deck with a guy waving a set of paddles was so good in the 40s/50s, that we should ditch things like ACLS and the Meatball right? Things that make it easier for the current generation and future generations aren't bad things. They're just a better way of doing something incredibly complex.

[Dangerzone]

10 hours ago, shagrat said:

Yeah, that's the reason multiple campaigns have very creative "automatic AAR" or "Spawn me in again after AAR"solutions, because it is "not required".

That's a good point I hadn't even considered previously as a benefit for this feature. Not only would AAR refueling benefit players who would find it helpful, it could also benefit campaign makers in that they wouldn't have to put in additional development to cater for those who can and can't AAR. 

Additionally, I know people who don't have the precise control due to health conditions / injuries. To be able to include the likes of these in dedicated Multiplayer missions where part of the process is AAR throughout the mission would be sweet, coz there's definitely something about being 10 guys flying in form watching and waiting for AAR'ing to take place during a closed mission. Well, on that note, to  be able to accommodate any newer players too and encourage them to get more involved in DCS is something I would definitely be open to using too.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Dangerzone

[SharpeXB]

58 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

One other thing I thought of after the fact, is how this feature could help those who already can refuel consistently... How many of you have pets? Or how many of you get packages delivered at random times during the day? Sure. In single player, it's easy, pause the game, go deal with the hairball, while grabbing the amazon package, and come back. But when you're online? On a server that only ever does Long-run missions and cold-starts? Yeah, when you're 4hrs into a 6hr mission, and Amazon decides that the best time to knock on your door just as you connect to the basket... having that feature could salvage that entire mission for you. Sure, it's a niche situation, but at the very least you can still deal with real life occurrences with such a feature enabled.

Ever heard of autopilot? Try it sometime

37 minutes ago, Dangerzone said:

for those who can and can't won’t learn to AAR. 

Fixed that for you

[79Au]

I don't think refueling is too hard. I learned it in F4.0 using a logitech3D "pro" stick. Didn't take too long and I was able to stay connected during turns. Then I tried with NVGs at night...  But yeah, on my first try I ran out of gas right behind the tanker and I had sore eyes from staring at the screen like a lunatic for 2 hours 

I'd say it's like riding a bicycle. First it seems impossible, but at some point it clicks and you become more confident.

My tipps for refueling: Turn off the HUD. Forget about autopilot or autothrottle, we need the opposite, we need to be in total control of the aircraft, we need to feel the aircraft and make small corrections all the time in order to keep the plane in position. Look at the tanker. Try getting used to the tankers movement and "view angles", and how to make corrections. You really have to practice AAR, it's not like procedures or weapon employment, where you can open a page in the manual and make it work in 10 minutes. Basically, it's flying in formation, you focus on the tanker (fuselage) and keep the probe/drogue in your peripheral view.

Now AAR is one of my favorite things to do in combat flight sims. But yes, a refueling assistant/autopilot would be a good thing in my opinion, let the sim do the work for you, sit back and enjoy the graphics.

[Exorcet]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Well that’s a matter of opinion… 

 

No, you are factually incorrect. You claim to somehow infer people's personality from how they enjoy simulators. You've been shown to be wrong over and over, but apparently you're completely not bothered by this.

Like I said before, opinions are fine. You're seeing pushback not for your opinion but because you are wrong and/or contradictory.

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Ever heard of autopilot? Try it sometime

Fixed that for you

And it happens yet again.