Normandy 2.0 - Please do it justice

[GUFA]

26 minutes ago, Beirut said:

I think customers are allowed to complain as long as they bought or keep buying stuff. If someone just sticks with the free version and the two planes and complains about everything else, that might be pushing it. But if the wallet feels the pain and modules are purchased, and this forum is pretty much the only outlet for a bit o' venting about the product, so be it. 

So being a new customer I not entitled to have a say. "Just shut up and follow along with the rest of the sheep"

19 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

And that's usually the problem, too many people these days apparently think they can just pop up and throw random and usually false <profanity>e into the fan and then they just go away leaving the place all swamped,

Come on now you are just misrepresenting what I am saying, I have already stepped back some way after my initial reaction so be truthful...

As to what I own in DCS A: thats none of your business B: I have volunteered that information already. But just to make it clear:

I have all current maps.

I have all current land/sea unit packs.

I own one(1) FF module so far, As I spend more time in DCS I will be buying other modules. But if I my opinions are to lampooned/discounted attack (by Devs), so be it. Obviously they don't need my money...

[Beirut]

23 minutes ago, GUFA said:

So being a new customer I not entitled to have a say. "Just shut up and follow along with the rest of the sheep"

 

 

 

 

I said nothing of the sort.

[GUFA]

Beirut Said

"think customers are allowed to complain as long as they bought or keep buying stuff. If someone just sticks with the free version and the two planes and complains about everything else, that might be pushing it."

 

Look if I misinterpreted what you said so be it, but the quote above would seem to say Exactly that. Maybe it  was Ala 13 that inter-mated that  "Because I Hadn't bought all $5000 worth of DCS modules I had no right to comment."

Look I'm not some selfish 'A' hole that wants my needs to be fulfilled above all others.I Make suggestions to benefit all users and having more battlefields+different eras  does that. Tell me I'm wrong?

Edited October 8, 2022 by GUFA
grammar fix

[Beirut]

46 minutes ago, GUFA said:

Beirut Said

"think customers are allowed to complain as long as they bought or keep buying stuff. If someone just sticks with the free version and the two planes and complains about everything else, that might be pushing it."

 

Look if I misinterpreted what you said so be it, but the quote above would seem to say Exactly that. Maybe it  was Ala 13 that inter-mated that  "Because I Hadn't bought all $5000 worth of DCS modules I had no right to comment."

Look I'm not some selfish 'A' hole that wants my needs to be fulfilled above all others.I Make suggestions to benefit all users and having more battlefields+different eras  does that. Tell me I'm wrong?

 

 

I said if you bought stuff you have a right to express yourself. I think that's fair.

 

Paying customers have a certain right to vent. That's business.

[GUFA]

6 minutes ago, Beirut said:

I said if you bought stuff you have a right to express yourself. I think that's fair.

 

Paying customers have a certain right to vent. That's business.

So I am a paying customer read my prev post...

Now I could be lying, are you calling me a Liar

 If not then I have the right to critique do I not?

[Beirut]

27 minutes ago, GUFA said:

So I am a paying customer read my prev post...

Now I could be lying, are you calling me a Liar

 If not then I have the right to critique do I not?

 

I think I was pretty clear and in no way calling you a liar.

 

I think we're done with this. A good day to you.

[GUFA]

1 minute ago, Beirut said:

I think I was pretty clear and in no way calling you a liar.

 

I think we're done with this. A good day to you.

If I'm wrong I say sorry, its the right thing to do...

So Be a man and say sorry.

[Captain Orso]

8 hours ago, GUFA said:

Yeah gonna call B$ls^&*t on that statement...

This Excerpt from the DCS newsletter:

07 October 2022

 

Dear Fighter Pilots, Partners and Friends, 

We are delighted to announce that Ugra Media’s next map will be DCS: Normandy 2. Using the skills developed whilst creating the outstanding DCS: Syria map, the new Normandy 2 map will use the latest DCS mapping technologies to create an epic World War II battlefield.

During the last months, IndiaFoxtEcho Visual Simulation has been improving and completing the features of DCS: MB-339 for its imminent release. These improvements will significantly enhance the unique flying experience that only DCS World can provide.

Please check out below DCS: Normandy 2 map details and the most up-to-date development progress of DCS: MB-339. These modules are both coming soon to your DCS World. 

Thank you for your passion and support.

Yours sincerely, 

Eagle Dynamics

 

So Nothing about any discounts for N1 users or any other "goodies  to be offered. Now if your information that you posted today is correct the great as it should be, there are 2 other maps concerning this area we don't need 3. Will N2 overwrite N1? Even though I just upgraded my SSD to a larger one I do not want 2 Normandy 44 map files on my system will N1+2 be 2 separate terrain folders or not? This is also a gripe when it concerns OnReTech's Sinai map as well.

Frankly ED needs to sort out the map system so we have a base make (1939) with different time era added as layers. This would solve a lot of problems as far as making maps goes.

So If this is an Update why are they passing it off as a "New" map. I just find this as incredibly lazy and dishonest if it is a new map.

I won't be taken for a mug, neither should anyone else

I'm not willing to read all of your diatribes. What I've read up to now is like a petulant child. The one theme in your posts is that you know nothing--absolutely nothing--but the verbal diarrhea just keep coming.

I'll not going to lose a second of my time trying to explain where and why you  are wrong. You are simply not worth it.

[GUFA]

Okay look had you read all my posts you would know that I have significantly shifted my views about Normandy V.2.0.

So, for the Record I um-reservatley  Apologize If i have personally offended (you). Some of that post and the ones that followed were meant to be funny. But obviously most didn't see the humor. I am from the English, speaking side of the mudball (not UK) so my humor isn't always understood. Again I do apologize for my  (this particular)comment and whilst I wont self censor I do & will apologize when wrong.

Edited October 8, 2022 by GUFA
grammar fix

[GUFA]

13 hours ago, Beirut said:

And this ain't the old times. I remember the old times. I was there. This ain't it. Commerce has changed massively and we're still getting used to it. That said, if someone bought the Normandy map and the Channel map, I think he has a right to interject about Normandy V2, whether his tone pleases you or not.

Okay I didn't see this post until some 10 hours after my last post. As it does appear that you have defended my right to have a say, even if too robustly for some. And as I have invested money into the game and I am not a "free user". I do tender a Apology, as worthless as you may see it. I like to think I am accountable for what I say, and had I seen/interpreted. My posts would have had a different complexion. But the Failure was on my end, and as such I am sorry.

Now does that means that other concerns are invalid no, I do think that some in ED + third party are not doing anything for customers not in the European sphere. And other maps (NOT DESERT) The only maps in the forthcoming group are 1940s Marianas and Normandy 44, All the others are deserts, even if they are green deserts (Kola). That is why I have a "Bee in my Bonnet" as regards to maps.

Once again I am sorry.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

17 hours ago, Beirut said:

It only bothers you if you let it bother you. Frustration management is as much for the listener as the speaker.

Like one has that option whenever all it's found at forums is complain this, complain that, complain about everything, complain everywhere they find the tiniest spot to complain no matter they are right or not .

I learnt a lot of time ago you don't always have to say everything there's is your head, just saying. If I were out there doing the same they do all of the time it would be a literal WAR, which apparently is what they seek… Still they aren't right 90% of the time, but they spill whatever anyway just in case, like spoiled child seeking for their parents attention .

[Beirut]

12 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Like one has that option whenever all it's found at forums is complain this, complain that, complain about everything, complain everywhere they find the tiniest spot to complain no matter they are right or not .

 

Of course you have that option. Unless you have divested yourself of agency and autonomy and are a slave to the passions of others, then you should be able to regulate your actions and act in accordance with your own values and not be a prisoner to the literary musings of others. 

 

12 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

I learnt a lot of time ago you don't always have to say everything there's is your head, just saying. If I were out there doing the same they do all of the time it would be a literal WAR, which apparently is what they seek… Still they aren't right 90% of the time, but they spill whatever anyway just in case, like spoiled child seeking for their parents attention .

 

Then don't give them attention. Read what you choose to read and respond to what you choose to respond to. 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Beirut

[Ala13_ManOWar]

26 minutes ago, Beirut said:

Of course you have that option. Unless you have divested yourself of agency and autonomy and are a slave to the passions of others, then you should be able to regulate your actions and act in accordance with your own values and not be a prisoner to the literary musings of others.

Haha, you're right, but I meant in a more literal way. If everything one finds everywhere is just complaints, the "option" would be I don't read a thing, I don't know whatever ED and third parties are up to, I have no right to know all of that because I have to cut myself out of the forums or anywhere just because that kind of people is all around everywhere. It means those individuals would have managed to effectively cast me out of everywhere because they're everywhere . But the same they claim they have right to expose their points and opinions (if we tell that's what they do, ahem…) because they paid, I also paid for about 3/4 of ED's store things and I think I have the same right to read, and tell my mind, I just try to keep it civil and polite which those apparently forget to, and I try not only to other forum members but to the devs either… they are people like me after all. I mean, I'm a customer, right, but I'm not the "master of my slaves" to treat them like those people do "because they paid", if you get me.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Ala13_ManOWar

[mwd2]

On 10/8/2022 at 1:51 PM, GUFA said:

[..]

 

So Nothing about any discounts for N1 users or any other "goodies  to be offered. Now if your information that you posted today is correct the great as it should be, there are 2 other maps concerning this area we don't need 3. Will N2 overwrite N1? Even though I just upgraded my SSD to a larger one I do not want 2 Normandy 44 map files on my system will N1+2 be 2 separate terrain folders or not? This is also a gripe when it concerns OnReTech's Sinai map as well.

Frankly ED needs to sort out the map system so we have a base make (1939) with different time era added as layers. This would solve a lot of problems as far as making maps goes.

So If this is an Update why are they passing it off as a "New" map. I just find this as incredibly lazy and dishonest if it is a new map.

I won't be taken for a mug, neither should anyone else

Maybe you should read the newsletter:

[..]DCS: Normandy 2 will be available as a complete map for $59.99 USD. If you have either DCS: Normandy 1944 or DCS: The Channel maps, you can purchase Normandy 2 for $14.99 USD. If you own both, you can purchase DCS: Normandy 2 for only $9.99 USD.[..]

Source: 

 

[GUFA]

54 minutes ago, mwd2 said:

Maybe you should read the newsletter:

[..]DCS: Normandy 2 will be available as a complete map for $59.99 USD. If you have either DCS: Normandy 1944 or DCS: The Channel maps, you can purchase Normandy 2 for $14.99 USD. If you own both, you can purchase DCS: Normandy 2 for only $9.99 USD.[..]

1: Look for a start my currency is AUD so currently it will sell at $15.63...

2: My gripe was never about money anyway it was always about getting new original, non desert or do-overs, maps. Why does every respondent IGNORE that Fact. I have already Acknowledged the discount 1/2 a dozen times already...

I even suggested I would be happy to pay twice, once for (all of) Great Britain, once for France (same). Heck I would also like the map to go to the East Polish border. But NO People want to flog me over initial comment...

I am arguing for more diverse maps period, Vietnam, The Korea's+ Japan, Belgium/Portuguese West Africa, Kashmir or the Indonesian Archipelago. But what are we getting, a 2nd Israel map (come on Ugra could have probably added this to Syria. Which, by the way is a fantastic map, Afghanistan (possibly next ED map), Kola And Capricornia. So when Ugra dropped the news that they were doing another Normandy 44 "I did my nana". So 4 deserts and a redo can you see why I snapped?

3 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Like one has that option whenever all it's found at forums is complain this, complain that, complain about everything, complain everywhere they find the tiniest spot to complain no matter they are right or not .

So read all of my post didn't you

 Hey pot your BLACK...

Edited October 9, 2022 by GUFA

[Ala13_ManOWar]

3 hours ago, GUFA said:

So read all of my post didn't you

 Hey pot your BLACK...

You know whenever someone thinks everything turns around himself has a name, right? It's even diagnosed .

[Callsign112]

2 hours ago, GUFA said:

... So when Ugra dropped the news that they were doing another Normandy 44 "I did my nana"....
 

 

At least one place where you might be wrong IMO is with the quote above.

While admittedly I am not 100% sure how Ugra's Normandy expansion is going to work, my understanding is it will not be an additional Normandy map.

In other words if you already own Normandy, you will still only have one Normandy map after you purchase the expansion. The increased disk space for the expansion will equal the amount required to accommodate the added area/detail. You will not need additional disk space for two separate maps.

The Normandy expansion is IMO very much needed and welcomed! This does not mean that we don't need other maps, it simply means that Ugra is giving this community a major update to one of its products. And based on the increased area and detail, the pricing structure that has been announced is extremely fair and should be well received by the DCS WWII community. 

[Beirut]

4 hours ago, GUFA said:

 

 

2: My gripe was never about money anyway it was always about getting new original, non desert or do-overs, maps.

 

 

Probably a mistake to continue this, but...

 

You are overlooking two important things: London & Paris. The inclusion of two large, historic cities is no small thing. It's a great big thing. It's two great big things. It's not just that the map moved a few degrees this way or that way and got a paint job; it's a substantial step forward in DCS map making. If they can make Paris and London run smoothly during a combat mission, it's a BIG deal. And if the map gods are kind, Paris will get killer night lighting making for some first rate eye-candy.

 

If you want to address the issue that this is a "do-over map", fine. But the onus is on you to also acknowledge that that the inclusion of London and Paris is a serious step forward.

[Rosebud47]

The interesting thing about the Normandy 2 announcement is with regard to the concept of a whole world for DCS. It was several times commented, even by Wags, that ED has plans for simulating the whole world, but so far no indication on how the whole world would fit into the concept of creating isolated maps so far. Also how would the whole world be sold? Approx 50,- $ per 500 squarekilometer of land?
Maybe Normandy 2 is also kind of testing a concept for a whole world simulation in DCS.

So, with that in mind, it is interesting, that it was said, if you got the old Normandy map and fly on a server with the new Normandy 2 map, the areas, which are extended and modeled in the new Normandy 2 are there too if you only got the old Normandy map, but with lower fidelity ( probably procedural generated and not handmade ) -  this could point on how a whole world in DCS might be realized, in particular: the areas in the world, which are not handmade are of very low quality in comparison but free of charge.

That leads to the next point, how a whole world in DCS might be charged. I think it will follow up the concept we´re seeing now with the Nomandy 2 expansion/upgrade/standalone map ( call it whatever ), that a fair payment concept will be included into the concept for a whole world in DCS, as well as the options to buy handmade high quality areas for the full price of a map to upgrade parts of the whole world, while still being able to fly across the whole world. I think the prizing for Normandy 2 is pretty fair and well created, same could be applied for a whole world concept and would be fair as well. The only drawback in regard for a whole world would be, that it will be mostly of low quality unless ED and 3rd parties would have created high quality handmade areas for every part in the world ( counting in decades of development ) and people pay the full price for upgrades of areas, what might get insane, when looking foward for the whole world as full quality handmade.

Would be really interesting to have a look on the low quality areas we get introduced on the old Normandy map with the release of the new Normandy 2 map.      

[GUFA]

11 hours ago, Callsign112 said:

At least one place where you might be wrong IMO is with the quote above.

While admittedly I am not 100% sure how Ugra's Normandy expansion is going to work, my understanding is it will not be an additional Normandy map.

Unless there are two (2) folders sitting in /mods/terrains  

9 hours ago, Beirut said:

You are overlooking two important things: London & Paris.

Now thats just wrong...

 

I DO THINK THAT ADDING LONDON AND PARIS IS ACTUALLY PRETTY COOL. SO DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

The main thrust of my argument is that Normandy 44 isn't a "NEW" map it is an Update/Upgrade. And that it Will tie Ugra up for years meanwhile other more interesting/challenging battlefields are on the NEVER NEVER, Even Warbird buffs, such as some of you appear to be would surely like other battle fields?

Frankly am also disappointed that OnReTech are doing Sinai. NOT JUST WHINGING FOR THE SAKE OF IT, BUT BECAUSE NOW NORTH AFRICA WW2 WONT HAPPEN FOR QUITE A WHILE. Surely you would be able to recognize that having EL Alamein, Operation Torch would be fantastic. Or  what about other WW2 (European) Battlefields such the Bombing of Cagliari, Anzio, The Winter War, Stalingrad, Moscow or Kursk. Now someone who lives in the Indo/Pacific, I haven't even touch on the Pacific Theater (don't mention Marianas that wasn't particularly famous IRTPT)  And that's just for the WW 2 Warbird fans. And outside of WW2 European/North Africa theaters, What about Korea, Cold War Africa or Kashmir...

No, nobody could possibly be interested in them...

LET ME UNDERSCORE ONCE AGAIN,

I am not against Normandy 44, You've (Beirut) won my over 1/2 a dozen posts ago. So pat yourself on the back I have shifted from my 2nd post on even IF I have reservations (questions of priority) So WHY have you been "Cherry picking" and lets be truthful, you have been. What I have said from 2nd post on. Is:

A. Normandy 44 could have been a back burner project, Even if Normandy 44 V.1 isn't great, it is usable, NOW. And if you don't like it use The Channel.

B. London and Paris are great additions to the map, but are "bling" as of now. Can you have Land Force engagement in these cities No ED hasn't fixed "combined ops, RTS" modes yet. Even if they did fix it they have also hinted at FPS "type" play as well. Personally would love to assault large cities but the game just isn't there yet is it

11 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

You know whenever someone thinks everything turns around himself has a name, right? It's even diagnosed .

How about playing the ball...

Mental Health degrees aren't on the back of Cereal boxes, Return yours

Edited October 10, 2022 by GUFA

[GUFA]

4 hours ago, Rosebud47 said:

So, with that in mind, it is interesting, that it was said, if you got the old Normandy map and fly on a server with the new Normandy 2 map, the areas, which are extended and modeled in the new Normandy 2 are there too if you only got the old Normandy map, but with lower fidelity ( probably procedural generated and not handmade ) -  this could point on how a whole world in DCS might be realized, in particular: the areas in the world, which are not handmade are of very low quality in comparison but free of charge.

So  I am not a Software engineer but this is how I could see it working.

1. ED does the "Globe" as a "Blank" Slate" the only human features would be the Suez & Panama canals. reasons for doing so should be obvious.

2. A ED Take responsibility for the "natural" features of the "whole Globe" i.e. watercourses, trees/forests, mountains,hills. Features below sea level such as the Dead Sea and any elevation change. With under sea warfare being added in some form they would also be responsible for seabed topography. Now this may sound hard but it is actually being done by satellites already using radar and/or LIDAR.

Question is can ED get hold of that data because this is "MILITARY GRADE" data and subject to OPSEC issues & possibly CLASSIFIED.

One consideration that would need to be looked at is, when doing "period maps (Marianas WW2 and today for instance). Is how do you account for continental drift also Landslides and other geological events. also watercourses change &/or dry up among other changes that occur over short time periods. There are other "natural changes" that I have missed but I'm sure you get the Idea.

Now this is were the "Map Makers" come in They would obtain the license from ED to do the Human Features as "Layers" on the map.  In Normandy 44 case all the towns,cities, any thing "human" related become the responsibility of the "Map Maker". Now there are some issues that I'm not quite sure who would be responsible for. Take Farm Fields, I would think ED owns this. And Dams/resonators. 

So as a user you get a "Globe Map" from ED. then you buy from the Map Maker the Human layer(s) that, then sit on top of ED's Natural Feature only "Globe" I think this is probably the way ED would do it. But I also think by that stage ED needs to concentrate on the Core and give Map & Module Development to the 3rd parties. I would think map maker's would find benefit in this approach as they don't have to worry about river,hills, forests etc. They can just concentrate on the human inclusions & this would likely speed up map development considerably.

 

All of which you the user wouldn't notice. The purchased "layer" wouldn't look or feel different. And when you fly over UN-purchased areas you still see terrain. but it wouldn't have any human features.

Edited October 10, 2022 by GUFA

[GUFA]

9 hours ago, Beirut said:

But the onus is on you to also acknowledge that that the inclusion of London and Paris is a serious step forward.

When Someone actually, eons from now, gets around to making North Africa I'll shout you a drink at "Sam's" joint

Edited October 10, 2022 by GUFA
Funny

[tomcat_driver]

So, they're going to put some salt and pepper and try to sell it again? Nice

[GUFA]

11 minutes ago, tomcat_driver said:

So, they're going to put some salt and pepper and try to sell it again? Nice

Normandy 44 isn't all bad at least we get this.

 

[Beirut]

7 hours ago, GUFA said:

I DO THINK THAT ADDING LONDON AND PARIS IS ACTUALLY PRETTY COOL. SO DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

 

 

Just to let you know, I am able to read normal sized letters on the screen.

 

And we're done. Have a great day.