Any speculation about Pico 4

[cerebrave]

@VR Flight Guy in PJ PantsCan you share us the result of this upgrade? the comparison?  i.e. in fps, network latency, or else? 

I simply upgraded mine with an earphone jack so I can connect headset while charging.  But at the end, I don't use it, as it turns out I prefer the built in speaker (for simplicity over sound quality).

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

As per requested, below please find some in-game shots using Performance Overlay. Please note the objects are actually closer than they seem.

[Dogmanbird]

Hi VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

Are you able to confirm that the vr passthrough is only 2d? If so, any chance you've heard any news it may become 3d stereoscopic in future firmware updates? 

Thanks

[cerebrave]

I took the liberty to jump in…
@Dogmanbirdas pico user, I can confirm it is now in 2D.  I also do not think that in the future it will be in 3d, because the color camera is only one, in the center.  Technically to me, it seems is not possible from its central position to generate stereoscopic passthrough with color, although some software engineering magic may still happen (i.e. by overlaying the color info into stereoscopic monochrome images utilizing the other cameras… but I still think the physical angle of the color camera could make it difficult).

if I may add as well, pico headset tracking in VD is not as good as in native pico OS in dark room.  May be it is VD issue, but definitely quest 2 doesn’t have this issue.  Other than that, to me, it is definitely an upgrade to Quest 2 in term of visual and audio quality, I have boxed my quest 2 now

[Dogmanbird]

Thanks Cerebrave.

I'd read some where that the quest pro also has a single colour camera but uses some magic to integrate the colour from it with the other cameras for it's stereoscopic passthrough. I've tried the quest pro pass through and it's quite poor quality but I had only 30 minutes to play around with it, however it is perfectly aligned with real objects when interacting with the real world and felt perfectly natural

[Dogmanbird]

gets mentioned here in a review from yesterday

 

[Dogmanbird]

btw, I didn't notice any additional heat while using the passthrough, but it may have been due to not using any masking and recording

Edited December 9, 2022 by Dogmanbird

[Max Thunder]

On 11/28/2022 at 8:39 AM, cerebrave said:

@HarkeSo we have the same problem... and I would like to share some development of my testing below, which might also help you figuring out.

@RealDCSpilotThanks for your comments, ideas and suggestions, I have done another series of testing and here are my findings below:

1. VD has internal resolution rendering, as below (taken from their official Discord bot message), and I think this is one of the key to my below findings

Virtual Desktop Setting - Graphic Quality : Render Resolution per eye
Quest
Potato: 1200x1344
Low: 1536x1728
Medium: 1824x2016
High: 2208x2400
Quest 2/Pico Neo 3/Quest Pro
Potato: 1440x1536
Low: 1728x1824
Medium: 2016x2112
High: 2496x2592
Ultra: 2688x2784
Godlike: 3072x3216 (Quest Pro Only)
Pico 4
Potato: 1488x1488
Low: 1776x1776
Medium: 2064x2064
High: 2544x2544
Ultra: 2736x2736
Godlike: 3120x3120

2. Auto resolution seems to lock steamVR to my previous super-sampling setting (around 1.5x).  So then it seems SteamVR was multipliying my VD rendering above, making my PC running too heavy hence slow fps.  Things didn't go this way if I use Oculus runtime.  Oculus runtime seems to be following VD's setting, including its sharpening level (btw VD's sharpening effect doesn't appear to be working with SteamVR/OpenVR runtime - but you can use reshade in OpenVR).

3. Airlink by default has lower res in Oculus app setting and that is the only resolution used by airlink.  If I use VD under Oculus runtime, it use VD's resolution which is higher than my airlink res (my VD is high 2496x2592 vs Airlink 1856x1872), hence Airlink performs better under this situation. 

4. Having said the above, I take an approximation of equivalent resolution within both VD setting and Airlink, and they now performs nearly the same.  So @RealDCSpilot, you are correct that resolution is the #1 factor to check.

5. I was remembering an incorrect fps count with Airlink.  The previous airlink test fps was with DCS2.7, and now we all see a slight worsening fps with 2.8.  (this is also additional factor)

6. Hence based on my limited testing above, below is my quick conclusion over resolutions used (happy to get any input) - and now it just seems obvious actually after I write it down.. lol...
Quest2 Airlink: Oculus App setting -> DCS PD multiplication
Quest2 VD Oculus runtime : VD setting -> DCS PD multiplication
Quest2 VD OpenVR runtime : VD setting -> SteamVR multiplication -> DCS PD multiplication
PICO4 VD Oculus runtime : VD setting -> DCS PD multiplication
PICO4 VD OpenVR runtime : VD setting -> SteamVR multiplication -> DCS PD multiplication

Now moving to PICO4, when at the end of the above equations resulting into similar resolution, Quest and Pico could perform the same within VD and Airlink, so therefore I can say that I'm now able to achieve my objective on to ensuring that I get the same performance as Airlink.  In term of VD, I wont be using SteamVR/OpenVR runtime as they are :

a. seems to miss the sharpening level that I like (that VD has).  You can use Reshade in SteamVR, but the downside, they crash quite often in my case.

b. seems to have another unnecessary pipeline with nothing to gain.

c. To my liking, the visual quality (despite of everything tried), is better when using Oculus runtime used.

 

So I'm now settled with PICO4's Ultra: 2736x2736 VD setting, MSAA-off, wireless VD, Oculus runtime.  It is very sharp and almost make those jagged aliases gone, and still keeping up the fps to be playable (above 45fps).  My 5Ghz router is just 1.5meter away from my face so excellent bandwith and signal, no need cable for now.

Regarding the hardware, I'm still awaiting how RX7900XTX performs over 4080 or 4090.  So I can decide which one to grab to replace my old VGA (and CPU) all together.  Is DDR5 performs better than DDR4? this is for another topic over my next upgrade.

Thanks - and hope this can help anyone looking for answer.

Maybe I missed that, but that means you are playing DCS with VD and the Oculus runtime but without Steam? My Pico 4 will arrive tomorrow and I am very interested how it will compare to my Quest 2. 
 

PS: And thanks for your comparison!

Edited December 11, 2022 by Max Thunder

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Well, if you play DCS with VD in Oculus runtime, it will not be OpenComposite. The performance will be better than SteamVR + OpenComposite as far as I can tell.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

It is kinda hard to go back to Quest2 now, the expanded sweet spot in Pico4 is very sweet.

BTW, off-topic, may be I need to wait for my 4090 to arrive:

 

[propeler]

What do you think about quality of picture comparing to something like Pimax Artisan or Pimax 5k? Artisan has lower resolution but does not have compression. PICO has higher resolution but of compressed video. Will it be picture quality improvement coming form Artisan or 5K to Pico?

[tomcat_driver]

Such a shame that the native pico software is so <profanity>. They failed by not providing a DP port and failed again by not making at least their wireless link usable.

[RealDCSpilot]

16 hours ago, propeler said:

What do you think about quality of picture comparing to something like Pimax Artisan or Pimax 5k? Artisan has lower resolution but does not have compression. PICO has higher resolution but of compressed video. Will it be picture quality improvement coming form Artisan or 5K to Pico?

With Virtual Desktop and it's high quality profiles you will barely see any compression artifacts in DCS. With high end hardware of course, i'm currently running a 3090 on the ultra setting, but will switch to a 4090 soon which will make the "godlike" setting possible.

[Mausar]

I hope we will see someday VR you can use stand alone  and if you connect to PC via cable computer take over and also no worries about battery life.

[tomcat_driver]

11 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

With Virtual Desktop and it's high quality profiles you will barely see any compression artifacts in DCS. With high end hardware of course, i'm currently running a 3090 on the ultra setting, but will switch to a 4090 soon which will make the "godlike" setting possible.

The only catch, you need a 4090...

[RealDCSpilot]

1 hour ago, tomcat_driver said:

The only catch, you need a 4090...

Ehm, no? Even with a 3080 you should be able to run the "Ultra" profile. Going 4090 is just my personal choice. And this here:

is also in the works...
Pico is keeping up with enhancing the software, nothing to worry about. The Pico 4 is currently one of the best PCVR headsets and not just because of it's price.

Edited December 13, 2022 by RealDCSpilot

[dburne]

9 hours ago, Mausar said:

I hope we will see someday VR you can use stand alone  and if you connect to PC via cable computer take over and also no worries about battery life.

For me personally I would rather they be developed as two devices rather than one that "does it all".

 

[cerebrave]

Guys, have you tried VD recently?  @RealDCSpilot@VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

I had a blast with Virtual Desktop -- the recent updated version brings a whole new level..  I got like about 10 fps gain vs previous version.  Guy Godin were right, he promised improvement in the new update.  This makes Pico 4 as an undisputable consumer level best PCVR solution as of now. 

I got like 60-75fps in highskies of GS server.  On its ground, I got around 50-55 fps, with only my 3080 : high settings, medium shadow, flat terrain object shadow, msaa2x (High VD @2544x2544 per eye).  This is totally playable everything is so sharp

I am very happy with my purchase

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Hey, glad you like it. Until I get my hands on a new PC, if I fly DCS in Pico4, it will be in Oculus emulation mode instead of OpenXR (SteamVR) model.

[RealDCSpilot]

@cerebrave Yeah, it's getting better and better.

[propeler]

On 11/30/2022 at 8:14 PM, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

As per requested, below please find some in-game shots using Performance Overlay. Please note the objects are actually closer than they seem.

Could you make couple of photos how it looks like through the lens. How readable are gauges in different planes

[cerebrave]

On 12/18/2022 at 9:14 PM, propeler said:

Could you make couple of photos how it looks like through the lens. How readable are gauges in different planes

It is hard to judge a through-the-lens capture (i.e. some spot can be blur for the lack of focus of the camera, but may give impression the headset is blurry).  But in case you are still interested to know, you may want to visit TyrielWood Youtube channel.  He got such video showing comparison of headsets, he even also have DCS as one of the demo game. 

https://youtu.be/5wlUvshUBrw

But in my testimony, Tyriel's video didnt do justice (with the reason I mentioned above - and indication to see this is the pixel screen door effect - if we cant see SDE and the image is blurred, then it is the camera distortion effect). 

As an owner of couples of headsets, since Rift CV1, Quest1, Quest2 and now Pico4.  I can say Pico4 is by far, the best!.  It has greater sweet spot compared to the puny Quest 2.  similar resolution as HP G2, and is quite cheap compared to the other recent headsets (in my country).  I'm saying that in PCVR experience.  The only downside of my Pico4 (in my case) is that it has a noticeable mura effect,  which might be vary from unit to unit.

Quest 3?  may be a different story though - but seeing Carmack leaving meta - we may not see his vision being realized....

Edited December 19, 2022 by cerebrave

[cordite]

On 12/13/2022 at 11:38 AM, tomcat_driver said:

The only catch, you need a 4090...

There is another, much worse catch: you have to have an internet connection every time you start the app.

[tomcat_driver]

How long does it take from turning it on until strapping it on ready to start playing a PC game?

From the comments it seems it's big effort with several steps.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Using VD:

Turn on Pico4

Set boundary

Select apps

Start VD

(For SteamVR) Click “Launch SteamVR” on VD

Launch DCS

or

(For Oculus emu) On desktop, find VD on System Tray

Right-click and select “Launch”

Find “DCs.exe” and run.

Edited December 20, 2022 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants