Winwing F16 Orion 2 MFSSB

[crispy12]

Hello gents,
I've decided to make this thread as I needed help finding sufficient information and reviews on this product. I have been playing DCS for many years and have been looking at RealSimulator's FSSB for a while, but the high price tag always put me off. Winwing's price tag definitely attracted me. The Grim Reapers MFSSB video also gave me sufficient input to purchase.

The hardware quality is excellent. The metal stick feels good, much better than Virpil SCG and regular MCG. The buttons have a pretty soft feel when pressed. However, they give a definite click when activated, so they are quite easy and predictable. The 2-stage trigger has a lot of travel for the 1st stage, which feels very different to the VKB Gunfighter. The grip is matte and very nice to hold, hefty and gives an impression that it could be used in a real aircraft, unlike the Gunfighter's plastic-injected grips, which feel like toys. The optional add-on hats look very ugly and are of inferior quality - the casing is plastic moulded and does not feel as premium as the stick itself. There is a rubberised plug which covers the hole for the extension. I left the joystick in the stock format as it looks better. An adjustable palm rest requires a change of screw thread - an unusual choice for Winwing but I can see how they went out of their way to make the stick as customisable as possible.

The base is good but I didn't really try the gimbal as this is the MFSSB version, so I can't comment on the quality and smoothness compared to my VKB Gunfighter. Dislike the circular connector at the stick base. The pins are fragile and seem like they would be damaged with multiple reconnections, as I was planning on removing the side stick when not in use. I would have preferred thick-pronged connectors or something sturdy like VKB's version. I printed a 3D printed mounting plate which I use to mount on to my aluminum profile sim rig. The holes are the same as Thrustmaster Warthog base so that may be convenient for certain people who already have that mount. 

Winwing's SimApp software is straightforward yet also confusing to use. The descriptions could be more explicit and it wasn't obvious what each mode actually did. The response does update in real time after changing the setting, so it was easy to adjust the setting and then alt-tab back into the game to see the effect. 

Overall usage is a mixed response for me. The force-sensing mechanism is very cool; however, flying requires a lot of muscle memory retraining. I struggled with formation flying, and aerial refuelling involves a lot of effort to prevent PIOs. I can imagine how with practice how one oculd be highly proficient with it. Personally, I need a lot more hours to give a good review on usage.

The overall packaging, shipping speed, build quality and experience is high. I suggest improvements in the DIN pin design for more durability, cleaning up and optimising the SimApp software for user-friendliness. 

Great job, Winwing

Edited November 16, 2022 by crispy12

[sirrah]

On 11/16/2022 at 2:40 PM, crispy12 said:

Hello gents,
I've decided to make this thread as I needed help finding sufficient information and reviews on this product. I have been playing DCS for many years and have been looking at RealSimulator's FSSB for a while, but the high price tag always put me off. Winwing's price tag definitely attracted me. The Grim Reapers MFSSB video also gave me sufficient input to purchase.

The hardware quality is excellent. The metal stick feels good, much better than Virpil SCG and regular MCG. The buttons have a pretty soft feel when pressed. However, they give a definite click when activated, so they are quite easy and predictable. The 2-stage trigger has a lot of travel for the 1st stage, which feels very different to the VKB Gunfighter. The grip is matte and very nice to hold, hefty and gives an impression that it could be used in a real aircraft, unlike the Gunfighter's plastic-injected grips, which feel like toys. The optional add-on hats look very ugly and are of inferior quality - the casing is plastic moulded and does not feel as premium as the stick itself. There is a rubberised plug which covers the hole for the extension. I left the joystick in the stock format as it looks better. An adjustable palm rest requires a change of screw thread - an unusual choice for Winwing but I can see how they went out of their way to make the stick as customisable as possible.

The base is good but I didn't really try the gimbal as this is the MFSSB version, so I can't comment on the quality and smoothness compared to my VKB Gunfighter. Dislike the circular connector at the stick base. The pins are fragile and seem like they would be damaged with multiple reconnections, as I was planning on removing the side stick when not in use. I would have preferred thick-pronged connectors or something sturdy like VKB's version. I printed a 3D printed mounting plate which I use to mount on to my aluminum profile sim rig. The holes are the same as Thrustmaster Warthog base so that may be convenient for certain people who already have that mount. 

Winwing's SimApp software is straightforward yet also confusing to use. The descriptions could be more explicit and it wasn't obvious what each mode actually did. The response does update in real time after changing the setting, so it was easy to adjust the setting and then alt-tab back into the game to see the effect. 

Overall usage is a mixed response for me. The force-sensing mechanism is very cool; however, flying requires a lot of muscle memory retraining. I struggled with formation flying, and aerial refuelling involves a lot of effort to prevent PIOs. I can imagine how with practice how one oculd be highly proficient with it. Personally, I need a lot more hours to give a good review on usage.

The overall packaging, shipping speed, build quality and experience is high. I suggest improvements in the DIN pin design for more durability, cleaning up and optimising the SimApp software for user-friendliness. 

Great job, Winwing

 

Thanks for this review @crispy12

I'm also in the market for a fssb stick. Real Simulater prices are absurd imho (as good as they may be). Vipergear VFS-WE mod for my Cougar base is quite affordable and seems good quality, however, I kinda don't want to keep Leaning on the old Cougar pcb and software..

Winwing's fssb seems the way to go (although at the moment, my monthly energy bill says: "no" )

[markturner1960]

I have this also and it does take some setting up to get it working how you want. My main issue is that it does not accurately return to centre - I mean if I use my Virgil joystick to fly the Viper, it maintain a flat  neutral pitch once speed is constant. Using the MFSSB, this is difficult to achieve….have you noticed this?

[markturner1960]

I would also be interested in the settings that you and other users have used, can you add to your post? Or do the pictures reflect what you have? 

[crispy12]

On 11/22/2022 at 12:29 AM, markturner1960 said:

I would also be interested in the settings that you and other users have used, can you add to your post? Or do the pictures reflect what you have? 

No i don't experience this

My controls indicator returns to zero when I don't enter any inputs

 

[markturner1960]

OK, that’s interesting….I will need to look into what’s happening with mine to cause that then…….would you mind to comment on my settings query?

[crispy12]

On 11/22/2022 at 12:29 AM, markturner1960 said:

I would also be interested in the settings that you and other users have used, can you add to your post? Or do the pictures reflect what you have? 

SimApp Pro:

MSSFB Config:
Force + Displacement (about 2/3 - slider under the word "more obvious")
Vertical Up/Down = 53%/53%
Left/Right = 46% / 46%
Boundary Beep/Vibration OFF

DCS
Pitch expo: -5% 
Roll expo: -2%

[Gunfreak]

On 11/16/2022 at 2:40 PM, crispy12 said:

Hello gents,
I've decided to make this thread as I needed help finding sufficient information and reviews on this product. I have been playing DCS for many years and have been looking at RealSimulator's FSSB for a while, but the high price tag always put me off. Winwing's price tag definitely attracted me. The Grim Reapers MFSSB video also gave me sufficient input to purchase.

The hardware quality is excellent. The metal stick feels good, much better than Virpil SCG and regular MCG. The buttons have a pretty soft feel when pressed. However, they give a definite click when activated, so they are quite easy and predictable. The 2-stage trigger has a lot of travel for the 1st stage, which feels very different to the VKB Gunfighter. The grip is matte and very nice to hold, hefty and gives an impression that it could be used in a real aircraft, unlike the Gunfighter's plastic-injected grips, which feel like toys. The optional add-on hats look very ugly and are of inferior quality - the casing is plastic moulded and does not feel as premium as the stick itself. There is a rubberised plug which covers the hole for the extension. I left the joystick in the stock format as it looks better. An adjustable palm rest requires a change of screw thread - an unusual choice for Winwing but I can see how they went out of their way to make the stick as customisable as possible.

The base is good but I didn't really try the gimbal as this is the MFSSB version, so I can't comment on the quality and smoothness compared to my VKB Gunfighter. Dislike the circular connector at the stick base. The pins are fragile and seem like they would be damaged with multiple reconnections, as I was planning on removing the side stick when not in use. I would have preferred thick-pronged connectors or something sturdy like VKB's version. I printed a 3D printed mounting plate which I use to mount on to my aluminum profile sim rig. The holes are the same as Thrustmaster Warthog base so that may be convenient for certain people who already have that mount. 

Winwing's SimApp software is straightforward yet also confusing to use. The descriptions could be more explicit and it wasn't obvious what each mode actually did. The response does update in real time after changing the setting, so it was easy to adjust the setting and then alt-tab back into the game to see the effect. 

Overall usage is a mixed response for me. The force-sensing mechanism is very cool; however, flying requires a lot of muscle memory retraining. I struggled with formation flying, and aerial refuelling involves a lot of effort to prevent PIOs. I can imagine how with practice how one oculd be highly proficient with it. Personally, I need a lot more hours to give a good review on usage.

The overall packaging, shipping speed, build quality and experience is high. I suggest improvements in the DIN pin design for more durability, cleaning up and optimising the SimApp software for user-friendliness. 

Great job, Winwing

 

I can't find any MFSSB config in my simapp pro

[Gunfreak]

Found it after updating sim app Pro, still not making any sense of it.

[crispy12]

21 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Found it after updating sim app Pro, still not making any sense of it.

Which part of does not make sense?

It's not very clear regarding each of the MFSSB modes as well. I had to try each while in DCS and just stuck with what felt the best.

[Gunfreak]

1 minute ago, crispy12 said:

Which part of does not make sense?

It's not very clear regarding each of the MFSSB modes as well. I had to try each while in DCS and just stuck with what felt the best.

Well the so called realistic one, not only does it says it requires something extra I don't know what is. But it's really really light. The smallest movment with no force abd the alarm beeps.

It also appears that even on the hardest settings on all axis (6kg)  it's still less than the real thing, which has 11kg pitch up, 7.2kg pitch down and 7.7kg roll. 

[markturner1960]

I found that even at 6kg, its really way too hard...I have my pitch at around 40% and roll at around 30%, using the mixed option, and with the slider approx 75% to the right. I know you are not supposed to either as linear is more "real", but I still use a curve on my DCS axis'. Otherwise, its impossible refueling. In the end, you just need to experiment to see what suits you best. I like a lot of travel ( I use an extension on mine as well) so I have loads of movement (combined with my curves) in the centre, ( but not too twitchy) where micromovements are very difficult to control accurately when refueling etc, but with the forces not hard enough so that its a real effort to go to the extremes of movement. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by markturner1960

[void68]

Am 3.12.2022 um 13:55 schrieb Gunfreak:

It also appears that even on the hardest settings on all axis (6kg)  it's still less than the real thing, which has 11kg pitch up, 7.2kg pitch down and 7.7kg roll. 

I think it's for convenience: First usually we aren't trained F16 pilots and some of us are pretty limb in their arms. Imagine pulling a 10l iron bucket of water upwards each time you do a high G pitch... second real life F16 got an armrest to support your just back-for moving arm while I doubt that even in a simpit anybody built an armrest for support and help pulling 11kg out of your shoulder / upper arm joint subscapularis muscle. And 7kg for rolling, power originating only either out of your hand joint or elbow or the same, now doing inefficient rotational work subscapularis muscle... that's quite a lot.

[Dragon1-1]

People who build simpits can easily add an armrest. In fact, it's pretty handy in that configuration. As for arm strength... well, time to hit the gym.  Real fighter pilots aren't massively buff, but they do need to have some muscle. 11kg for full pitch isn't a terribly high force, all things considered, and this allows the stick to be very precise in the G range that's really important. Same for roll. Most of the time you don't want a full rate, but precision counts. This is why real pilots don't really need stick curves, AAR with a stick that tops out at 11kg of pull is supposedly pretty easy (the F-16 does actually have a curve to its stick response, but I'm not sure if DCS replicates it).

[crispy12]

Where you hold the stick matters. It's impossible without a proper arm rest. I'm using a car seat as my sim rig and it has little wings out the sides which I can rest my elbow on. Then I hold the stick at the top of the grip. It's a lot more moment at the top compared to resting your palm on the palm rest. Of course tune to your settings, I don't use the realistic setting either. 

 

It's tiring for sure. Sometimes I just wish I had a normal Orion 2 base. Haha. But my centre stick with extension already fulfills that role 

[Dragon1-1]

The problem with Winwing grip is the angle, the real Viper grip does not actually sit upright, it leans forward about 14 degrees, IIRC. That makes it a whole lot more ergonomic. Winwing should consider an angled adapter for simpit builders, the RealSimulator base already has something like that.

[Scott-S6]

6 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The problem with Winwing grip is the angle, the real Viper grip does not actually sit upright, it leans forward about 14 degrees, IIRC. That makes it a whole lot more ergonomic. Winwing should consider an angled adapter for simpit builders, the RealSimulator base already has something like that.

It's 16 and it makes a huge difference. If you've got the stick in the right position you simply can't get form a proper grip without that angle. The alternative to an adaptor is simply to mount the whole unit (base+grip) angled forward.

[Dragon1-1]

Yeah, 16, been a while since I've been looking at it. Of course it makes a huge difference, that's why the designers did it that way.  The F-16's ergonomics are very well thought out, although the seat had been said to be a pain in the neck on longer flights, or with the JHMCS. I suppose mounting the base at an angle could help, but it really should be an adapter.

[Scott-S6]

On 3/2/2023 at 9:25 AM, void68 said:

second real life F16 got an armrest to support your just back-for moving arm while I doubt that even in a simpit anybody built an armrest for support 

You don't have an arm rest?

[void68]

Am 7.3.2023 um 18:55 schrieb Scott-S6:

You don't have an arm rest?

You proved me wrong... No, I have none, not yet, but you just made me a new project. However the starboard side is my cockpit entry, and it's already cramped like hell, forces me to stay somewhat "slim". I fear I have to climb a ladder into the cockpit soon...

[Dragon1-1]

2 hours ago, void68 said:

I fear I have to climb a ladder into the cockpit soon...

Realism!  

 

 

[Scott-S6]

2 hours ago, void68 said:

You proved me wrong... No, I have none, not yet, but you just made me a new project. However the starboard side is my cockpit entry, and it's already cramped like hell, forces me to stay somewhat "slim". I fear I have to climb a ladder into the cockpit soon...

I had to make a box to climb onto in order to step onto the seat and the handrail the armrest is attached to takes the place of the cockpit sidewall which you need to lean on in order to get your right foot down into into the cockpit well.

BTW triathlon bar kits are a good source of cheap arm rest pieces.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Scott-S6

[BaronVonVaderham]

Hi all,

i kinda like to go back to the original post on the use of mfssb. 
I’m looking at the winwing at the moment and an about to pull the trigger (pun intended, probably is joke by now). What I’m not sure about is getting a classic Orion 2 bad or the mfssb base. I never flown with the latter. 
admittedly I’ve been out of flight sims for a while so I currently don’t have a bias. 
 I can see pros with a classic base, where sudden reactions don’t result in over steering. But the con I can see that lots of stick movement could cause rsi, especially when not in a perfect ergonomic position (e.g. without arm support)

the pros with mfssb is obviously less chance of rsi and other ergonomic issues, but like pointed out by others, it flies differently. 
 

I’d like to hear from people who have used both approaches, and can state their experiences on how they experienced the difference (besides relearning muscle memory).

[Scott-S6]

The Win Wing FSSB implementation is really odd and not at all like the actual stick. There's a center zone where it can move with little resistance then you hit a wall and it becomes force sensing with no movement. On the real stick it's rigid at centre, displacing very slightly as you add more force. 

I don't like WW's implementation at all although I do like FSSB sticks (I have a force sensing side stick and gimbaled center stick). I also dislike that WW haven't built the forward rake needed for a properly mounted side stick into their stick - they don't even offer a suitable adaptor or mount, leaving you to figure out how to add that forward rake to your mount. (You can see that rake in my pic above which is a TM with custom tailpipe on an RS base)

With a gimballed stick you would not typically have arm support. What you do want very much is an extension and a base designed for use with an extension (i.e. with reduced travel) together with a suitable mounting system. This means you get the same displacement of the grip but with less rotation of the grip through that arc - it is the rotation (especially to the rear) that can make desktop sticks uncomfortable. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Scott-S6

[BaronVonVaderham]

On 5/15/2023 at 8:03 PM, Scott-S6 said:

The Win Wing FSSB implementation is really odd and not at all like the actual stick. There's a center zone where it can move with little resistance then you hit a wall and it becomes force sensing with no movement. On the real stick it's rigid at centre, displacing very slightly as you add more force. 

I don't like WW's implementation at all although I do like FSSB sticks (I have a force sensing side stick and gimbaled center stick). I also dislike that WW haven't built the forward rake needed for a properly mounted side stick into their stick - they don't even offer a suitable adaptor or mount, leaving you to figure out how to add that forward rake to your mount. (You can see that rake in my pic above which is a TM with custom tailpipe on an RS base)

With a gimballed stick you would not typically have arm support. What you do want very much is an extension and a base designed for use with an extension (i.e. with reduced travel) together with a suitable mounting system. This means you get the same displacement of the grip but with less rotation of the grip through that arc - it is the rotation (especially to the rear) that can make desktop sticks uncomfortable. 

 

I like your arm support solution. Very practical!

As for the rake, I unde4rstood (maybe incorrectly) that you can use thrustmaster grips on WW bases, in which case I'm sure there is an adapter that can be used to give you that rake.

Not being able to judge one from another, I think I'll get the regular one. If I get an opportunity to try FSSB, then maybe I will change the base.

Edited June 10, 2023 by BaronVonVaderham