is DCS a Ship Simulator and weapons systems Simulator only ?

[RealDCSpilot]

How much of the realism in DCS is provided is the choice of the human being sitting in front of his computer. Force feedback, VR, telemetry export and motion sim - it's all there.

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by RealDCSpilot

[Hiob]

If I only had unlimited resources of money....

[Aquorys]

On 11/19/2022 at 9:31 AM, GOZR said:

FM physics are mediocre and too over controlled

If you think that the current F-16 is overcontrolled, then you have clearly never flown an Airbus aircraft 

[Dragon1-1]

It's quite obvious he never flew anything with FBW.

[GOZR]

7 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It's quite obvious he never flew anything with FBW.

LoL. Did you?  Interesting

I ll be answering at some comments.. little time now.. 

Many don't really read well and feel attacked when I am not.. .. so do i, when trying to explain since this is not my native language.. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by GOZR

[GOZR]

8 hours ago, Aquorys said:

If you think that the current F-16 is overcontrolled, then you have clearly never flown an Airbus aircraft 

LoL clearly no i did not .  Since we do not have the kg push and pull on controllers ..virtual controls are over controlled due to this missing factor.. again this is not about FM

Edited November 23, 2022 by GOZR

[GOZR]

On 11/20/2022 at 8:55 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

No other combat sim that I know of does those things (the other WWII sim is even worse about turbulence and the like), so it's either that, or employing weapons. DCS started out as a modern aircraft sim, so different things were prioritized. Flying is not the primary challenge when flying a modern jet, operating its systems and fighting in it is. Right now priority is graphics, the weather engine is seeing some work, but not as much as I'd like (particularly VR cloud flickering). Another priority is AI, also important in any kind of combat operation unless you go all-MP. I wouldn't expect massive changes until multicore and Vulkan are finished, since those likely tie up a lot of ED's resources right now.

Excuse me!  Flying is not a priority while flying jets.???. well humm ok .. that is why I was saying that it is good for weapons systems.. but if the atmospherics effe ts were more implemented you all will have a much more fun flight... seriously

Yes multicires etc is  a must.. again we all want the same at the end just different priorities.. but imo flight.. weater atmospheric is the first.. yes Ai need a serious TLC .. not just on dogfights but just in flight formations would very beneficial some love and realism.. which will make flights so much better

Edited November 23, 2022 by GOZR

[GOZR]

23 hours ago, Hiob said:

„two weeks“(tm) 

Two decades now

[Dragon1-1]

10 minutes ago, GOZR said:

Excuse me!  Flying is not a priority while flying jets?

Well, considering Super Hornet pilots stated they're less like pilots and more like voting members these days, I'd say that when talking about modern FBW jets, yes. I'm not saying atmospherics wouldn't be nice, but the latest jets basically do the flying for you, the pilot is there so that the general has someone to throw under the bus if a bomb does end up where it wasn't supposed to, so to speak. The jets we have in DCS are not quite as bad about it, but they still take a lot of flying out of your hands, and enable you to focus on combat, which is what DCS is about. Only recently have we started to get an influx of older jet where that is not the case.

15 minutes ago, GOZR said:

Yes multicires etc is  a must.. again we all want the same at the end just different priorities.. but imo flight.. weater atmospheric is the first.. yes Ai need a serious TLC .. not just on dogfights but just in flight formations would very beneficial some love and realism.. which will make flights so much better

We need performance improvements, because VR people will cry foul if their performance tanks again due to detailed atmospherics (wake turbulence is often disabled in MP, presumably due to this). We need updated AI, because right now turbulence would more likely than not slam you into your wingman, or your wingman into you, or your wingman into the tanker, taking both out... In fact, this does occasionally happen without any turbulence, thankfully not often, but the AI would not pass a PPL exam right now. In the end, there's a lot to do before realistic atmospherics can happen.

All that is being worked on. So is the weather. With so many things in the pipeline, don't expect anything to happen fast. Myself, I agree with prioritizing combat, because again, this is the primary focus of DCS, this is what most people are here for. There's a new AI FM in development, which will hopefully also address some of their enroute stupidity, or at least force ED to rethink their behavior. Then we can think about making flying itself more difficult.

[GOZR]

On 11/19/2022 at 1:13 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

Multiple RL pilots have stated FM physics are, in fact, mostly correct. So you are very much not right on that account. FBW and hydraulic controls do make fighters feel "over-controlled" if you're used to flying a Cessna, but that's just how they are. Try WWII aircraft, they're a lot less smooth.

Yes, weather needs improvement, that much is well known. However, this isn't a glider sim. Thermals and turbulence from weather don't throw jet fighters around nearly as much as they do GA aircraft. Terrain effects we could use, could be a nasty surprise for low level attackers like the Viggen or F-15.

Important to read the actual txts not what you think..  this is not a matter of the aircraft FMs..  not at all here.. but the basic of atmospherics stimulations or affecting the aircraft.. maybe visuals effectcs like the buffet of harder turns on F14 as an example is good.. really in real life it feels like contcrete scrapping.. si i do appreciate that touch.. a lot.. 

[GOZR]

15 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, considering Super Hornet pilots stated they're less like pilots and more like voting members these days, I'd say that when talking about modern FBW jets, yes. I'm not saying atmospherics wouldn't be nice, but the latest jets basically do the flying for you, the pilot is there so that the general has someone to throw under the bus if a bomb does end up where it wasn't supposed to, so to speak. The jets we have in DCS are not quite as bad about it, but they still take a lot of flying out of your hands, and enable you to focus on combat, which is what DCS is about. Only recently have we started to get an influx of older jet where that is not the case.

We need performance improvements, because VR people will cry foul if their performance tanks again due to detailed atmospherics (wake turbulence is often disabled in MP, presumably due to this). We need updated AI, because right now turbulence would more likely than not slam you into your wingman, or your wingman into you, or your wingman into the tanker, taking both out... In fact, this does occasionally happen without any turbulence, thankfully not often, but the AI would not pass a PPL exam right now. In the end, there's a lot to do before realistic atmospherics can happen.

All that is being worked on. So is the weather. With so many things in the pipeline, don't expect anything to happen fast. Myself, I agree with prioritizing combat, because again, this is the primary focus of DCS, this is what most people are here for. There's a new AI FM in development, which will hopefully also address some of their enroute stupidity, or at least force ED to rethink their behavior. Then we can think about making flying itself more difficult.

Agreed yes exactelly ..  the moderns jets are exactelly made for yes.. only to me differ is thatvsince I know Flankers and lockon from start and the others .. the plan was to actually make the flight much more realistic that is why the Su25T was at start..  than by interest the weapons got much better... good.. this is a talk with the Dev for the past two decades.. which i as well helped in cases.  

Yes I do prefer the ww2 ww1 and earlier jets due to real experiences.. having lost friends in FBW aixraft like Mirage 2k and tests friends pilots alas. This is where my experience cone from.. started as Moto racer and on a bet got involved with some fantastic pilots that took me unders their wings.. Started from day one on a Yak9 #01 til the best of all tbe #08 which today #01 became red. And then much many others etc.. and early Jets.. soviet. Just a fast say. But i always was involved in flight sim since day one .. etc etc. 

 

I hear what you say and yes correct.. thank you.

Edited November 23, 2022 by GOZR

[GOZR]

On 11/22/2022 at 12:34 PM, NineLine said:

Please keep the discussion on DCS World, you may use your real world experiences in the explanations of your issues, but we are not modelling other games, we are modelling real life the best we can. While not everything is perfect, we are striving to do so, will it happen over night? No, will it happen in two weeks? No, but we are working as hard as we can to build the best flight and combat simulation we can. 

If you see issues, please make proper bug reports with evidence if you want to help change things, if you are just burned out there is nothing wrong with taking a break. We plan on being here a very long time. 

Thanks.

I read you.. going to answer.. just hard while driving.  And read this days.  

Make mo mistake. . I really like it.. just ... and thank you to answer.. admin

[Dragon1-1]

12 minutes ago, GOZR said:

Important to read the actual txts not what you think..  this is not a matter of the aircraft FMs..  not at all here.. but the basic of atmospherics stimulations or affecting the aircraft.. maybe visuals effectcs like the buffet of harder turns on F14 as an example is good.. really in real life it feels like contcrete scrapping.. si i do appreciate that touch.. a lot.. 

The F-14 is one of the best modules out there, and it tries doing some things most other aircraft don't. Hopefully, some of that will become standard, from what I've heard Aerges is taking some cues from the F-14 with their Mirage III. That said, the Hornet and especially the Viper in most cases won't let you into the "concrete-scraping regime". You can pull the paddle in the Hornet to disengage some safeties that prevent you from getting anywhere near trouble, but AFAIK in normal combat flying the buffet is not as severe on hard maneuvers as it is in the Tomcat, both due to more refined aerodynamic design and the limiters that guard you from going into the very edges of the envelope.

That said, the biggest problem of all is the fact that most of us are seating in an office chair and not on a proper simulator seat. You want real buffet, you need to splurge for a JetSeat and a Buttkicker. Tomcat is a great approximation and I hope it gets applied to the older planes, but it's still an approximation made so that you don't have to stare at your very inconveniently located G indicator in order to know if you're pulling too hard or not. In a real aircraft, particularly warbirds and old jets, a lot is felt with your buttocks and in many cases, your whole body. For example, it's notoriously hard to stay coordinated in the sim on pre-yaw damper aircraft, while IRL it's natural, based on your sense of balance. There's no way to recreate that short of an actual motion platform.

[GOZR]

8 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The F-14 is one of the best modules out there, and it tries doing some things most other aircraft don't. Hopefully, some of that will become standard, from what I've heard Aerges is taking some cues from the F-14 with their Mirage III. That said, the Hornet and especially the Viper in most cases won't let you into the "concrete-scraping regime". You can pull the paddle in the Hornet to disengage some safeties that prevent you from getting anywhere near trouble, but AFAIK in normal combat flying the buffet is not as severe on hard maneuvers as it is in the Tomcat, both due to more refined aerodynamic design and the limiters that guard you from going into the very edges of the envelope.

That said, the biggest problem of all is the fact that most of us are seating in an office chair and not on a proper simulator seat. You want real buffet, you need to splurge for a JetSeat and a Buttkicker. Tomcat is a great approximation and I hope it gets applied to the older planes, but it's still an approximation made so that you don't have to stare at your very inconveniently located G indicator in order to know if you're pulling too hard or not. In a real aircraft, particularly warbirds and old jets, a lot is felt with your buttocks and in many cases, your whole body. For example, it's notoriously hard to stay coordinated in the sim on pre-yaw damper aircraft, while IRL it's natural, based on your sense of balance. There's no way to recreate that short of an actual motion platform.

You got it.. 100%

[t-stoff]

I'm currently on a mission in Dominant Fury campaign in an Hornet and in a low level mission over some mountains the plane bumps and shakes a lot. I have the sim shaker also active. Tomorrow I will turn on the log to check what is dcs activating/saying on the software to get the vibrations.

I just found this topic because I couldn't tell if I ever had this experience before

[GOZR]

43 minutes ago, t-stoff said:

I'm currently on a mission in Dominant Fury campaign in an Hornet and in a low level mission over some mountains the plane bumps and shakes a lot. I have the sim shaker also active. Tomorrow I will turn on the log to check what is dcs activating/saying on the software to get the vibrations.

I just found this topic because I couldn't tell if I ever had this experience before

Yes good.. i teresting to see if those data vould be tranmitted to effects as vibrations buttets etc.. ( same for engine magement .. more feed back for best fine tuned which we alll do in the air)

Thanks to do so.. 

I know i made 8 years ago pedals using a microsoft steering wheen engine and componants.. and place them into rudimentary pedals home made and yes i had FFB on pedals but i eliminated shakes and left the forces.. as i was using also FFB stick.. felt much better .. for forces to apply.. on older gen aircraft you push and pull

Edited November 24, 2022 by GOZR

[GOZR]

The discussion started maybe as a sounding rant but it is not.. what i really wish is to give a feed back for pilots how never flew in RL those can of fast aircraft.

And can we help .. setup.. modify forva best feeling.. I am sure it will feel more difficult in virtual in many areas but much more realistic while utilizing VR .  Not in many cases in RL you can feel shakes etc not on the stick but through your whole body and vision,  due to fuselage, wings, tale's feedback which in pre fbw is extremely important..  in some area in RL is  easier mostly with the visual depth etc...  what to do to be able to help with this..? a collective brain storming.. not a rant or pushing off anyone.   if i can express myself correctly..  i really think we are all open to this. And as community we could help to advance in the right direction.. remember when at the time We started to mod textures terrains and bases.. I did ..  Mustang did.. .. adding objects as well.. then I moded a 6dof implementation into su25t..  clouds shadows etc.. this pushed ED to see what we all wanted.. and look now.. works

Edited November 24, 2022 by GOZR

[t-stoff]

so I turned on the log in the simshaker/bass that activates the DCS inputs and yes its indeed turbulence when you fly low over after the push in one of the Raven One: Dominant Fury missions! ;D

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

I would love me some FFB in DCS. I should look into trying that.

[GOZR]

Happy Thanks Giving to all

[t-stoff]

FFB would be indeed super sweet, specially if you fly old jets or prop planes, but with bass shakers it gets pretty awesome already. Its a must have!

[GOZR]

3 hours ago, t-stoff said:

FFB would be indeed super sweet, specially if you fly old jets or prop planes, but with bass shakers it gets pretty awesome already. Its a must have!

True.. 

[tomcat_driver]

DCS Core needs some love! 

 

[trevoC]

Your head clipping outside the aircraft is not an easy VR problem to fix.

Many have tried different methods, but I personally prefer the solution ED has implemented which is allowing the head outside the cockpit.

At first it may seem strange to allow you to do this, but preventing your head outside the cockpit is now in your hands... don't put your head outside the cockpit.

Sims that try to limit this movement are worse IMO as there are so many different types of headsets and heads. I can't stand when they try to limit the movement as what will happen is you move your head to the side and all of a sudden your vision stops moving (as your vr head has hit their limit) but you are still moving your head. This doesn't seem right when in VR IMO and is worse than allowing a little clipping.

This is very noticeable as your head might hit the limit long before your sight or eyes start clipping outside the cockpit.

Imagine twisting your head left and looking down. As it is now, if the top of your head were to clip through the aircraft you wouldn't notice a thing as you are looking down at your controls, but if this was limited or preventing you from clipping through the aircraft, you would find many situations where you wouldn't even be able to see your left control panels as you do now without the helmet hitting the cockpit and your vision being stopped from moving while you are still moving your head. This would become frustrating very fast.

Bottom line, if you don't want to clip outside the aircraft, stop moving your head outside the aircraft.

Edited November 25, 2022 by trevoC

[Baldrick33]

1 hour ago, trevoC said:

Bottom line, if you don't want to clip outside the aircraft, stop moving your head outside the aircraft.

 

I agree. Sticking your head outside the cockpit is immersion breaking so in my experience I quickly learnt not to do it, just as if I hit my head on the glass in a real cockpit I wouldn't keep doing it