Aerobatic Maneuvers in the 'Shark

[Nayles]

I'm wondering if there are any skilled BS Pilots here who can give some idea of control inputs when performing certain aerobatic maneuvers.

The maneuvers I am particulary interested in are:

 

Hammerhead

Roll (Axle and Barrel)

Loop

Funnel

Forward flight into full sideslip and back.

 

I perform acrobatics using 3 channel AP with FD on.

 

The Hammerhead is the only maneuver I have practised a fair bit but am still unsure if I am doing it right. I tend to pitch up at around 220-250 kph to 50 degrees of pitch and then carefully pull another 20-25 degrees. I watch my speed until it stops decreasing at which point I feed in a little rudder input which seems to initiate the 180 degree turn and then I'm on my way down again and concentrating on pulling out of the dive smoothly.

 

Now I did all this without touching the collective and when viewing in replay mode I notice that at the top of the Hammerhead the Shark 'baloons' horizontally which looks wrong to me. I feel like I should be coming back down nearer to the point I initially went up (apologies for clumsy description).

 

So I tried reducing collective to zero when pulling between 50-75 degrees and then reintroducing collective gradually on the way down once the turn is complete. I find this much harder to get right and at this moment in time I am mostly struggling with the turn hence my post.

 

I have tried loops and rolls but I find them difficult to coordinate.... I am left wondering what combination of collective, cyclic and rudder I should be using. :joystick:

 

I also don't run a headtracking device at the moment so I am doing all this looking forwards only which may or may not be an issue.

 

Any comments from Blash Shark stunt flyers would be most appreciated.

 

Thanks. :thumbup:

 

p.s. I have watched the tracks in the replay folder with the intention of merely imitating the pilots inputs but that has proved easier said than done (for me anyway).

[Chillspider]

I wish someone would make a Video tutorial on tactics and maneuvers. Ive been looking all over for Combat tactics and Maneuvers for attack choppers. But so far not much luck.

[MBot]

The only other thing I can say than "just do it" would be to pull lots of collective when trying to yaw (for example at the top of a hammer head). This will give you the torque required for high rudder responsiveness.

[815TooCooL]

When you maneuver, you should be holding trim key keep pressed.

Otherwise, you'll end up fighting autopilot.

Pressed, release, pressed, release and so on. Not an easy job. :)

[Chillspider]

Check this out Bell 206 doing Hammerhead lol.

[miguez]

The only other thing I can say than "just do it" would be to pull lots of collective when trying to yaw (for example at the top of a hammer head). This will give you the torque required for high rudder responsiveness.

 

But it will also make the helicopter move horizontally, as the original poster mentioned, which is not what he wants.

 

I don't have an answer for you, at least not yet ;).

 

Let's see if someone else posts in here.

[Yo-Yo]

I'm wondering if there are any skilled BS Pilots here who can give some idea of control inputs when performing certain aerobatic maneuvers.

The maneuvers I am particulary interested in are:

 

Hammerhead

Roll (Axle and Barrel)

Loop

Funnel

Forward flight into full sideslip and back.

 

I perform acrobatics using 3 channel AP with FD on.

 

The Hammerhead is the only maneuver I have practised a fair bit but am still unsure if I am doing it right. I tend to pitch up at around 220-250 kph to 50 degrees of pitch and then carefully pull another 20-25 degrees. I watch my speed until it stops decreasing at which point I feed in a little rudder input which seems to initiate the 180 degree turn and then I'm on my way down again and concentrating on pulling out of the dive smoothly.

 

Now I did all this without touching the collective and when viewing in replay mode I notice that at the top of the Hammerhead the Shark 'baloons' horizontally which looks wrong to me. I feel like I should be coming back down nearer to the point I initially went up (apologies for clumsy description).

 

So I tried reducing collective to zero when pulling between 50-75 degrees and then reintroducing collective gradually on the way down once the turn is complete. I find this much harder to get right and at this moment in time I am mostly struggling with the turn hence my post.

 

I have tried loops and rolls but I find them difficult to coordinate.... I am left wondering what combination of collective, cyclic and rudder I should be using. :joystick:

 

I also don't run a headtracking device at the moment so I am doing all this looking forwards only which may or may not be an issue.

 

Any comments from Blash Shark stunt flyers would be most appreciated.

 

Thanks. :thumbup:

 

p.s. I have watched the tracks in the replay folder with the intention of merely imitating the pilots inputs but that has proved easier said than done (for me anyway).

 

I am afraid that reducing collective while doing a hammerhead is not a good idea because you reduce available yaw moment .

In Ka-50 generally you can perform only something like barrel roll. I never consider it hard. The main point is to get initial pitch 10-15 deg at 150-220 kph. Then roll it reducing collective to gear up attitude and then pull it back getting the normal attitude.

Starting the loop you must be at 270-280 kph speed. Level the wings. Then pull... Watch the bank. When you are getting normal attitude descending watch rotor rpm and increase collective if necessary to avoid overrev. It gives you more G, by the way.

If all was OK your blades length will be the same as before the loop... :)

The point is not to move the stick fast when your BS rotates fast... :)

 

 

Split-S, by the way, is very useful too.

Edited January 21, 2009 by Yo-Yo

[Nayles]

@MBot - Yes, it does now feel with zero collective at the top that I struggle to initiate the turn and control it once initiated. One attempt even spat me out into a hover at the top shortly after initiating the turn.

 

Obviously this leads me to ask whether or not the horizontal ballooning at the top is a 'feature' of this maneuver?

 

@TooCool - I'm trimming frequently up until I hit 50 degrees of pitch. I'll try holding down the trim button after this point next time and see if this helps.

 

Thanks for the feedback Guys.... I think I need to study the in-cockpit antics of those pilots who flew the airshow tracks in the replay section. :book:

[MBot]

But it will also make the helicopter move horizontally, as the original poster mentioned, which is not what he wants.

 

Right, but I think that is the only way to do it with a co-axial helicopter. Yawing is done through different torque of the upper and lower rotor. Pulling little collective and therefore generating a small torque leaves only a small torque differential between the two rotors available to generate a yaw motion.

[Nayles]

I am afraid that reducing collective while doing a hammerhead is not a good idea because you reduce available yaw moment .

In Ka-50 generally you can perform only something like barrel roll. I never consider it hard. The main point is to get initial pitch 10-15 deg at 150-220 kph. Then roll it reducing collective to gear up attitude and then pull it back getting the normal attitude.

Starting the loop you must be at 270-280 kph speed. Level the wings. Then pull... Watch the bank. When you are getting normal attitude descending watch rotor rpm and increase collective if necessary to avoid overrev. It gives you more G, by the way.

If all was OK your blades length will be the same as before the loop... :)

The point is not to move the stick fast when your BS rotates fast... :)

 

 

Split-S, by the way, is very useful too.

 

Thanks for the pointers.... I'll be trying the loop and roll tonight. I'm hoping that Split-S and Immelman use elements of the roll and loop maneuvers.

 

It was exactly this sort of info I was after. :thumbup:

[Chillspider]

Dont you have to be careful not to give too much collective when pulling the nose up to 45 degrees doing a hammerhead . I thought if you did it could burn out the RPM's . Im just wondering because i have burned them out pulling the nose high like that with a lot of collective to slow down.

[miguez]

Right, but I think that is the only way to do it with a co-axial helicopter. Yawing is done through different torque of the upper and lower rotor. Pulling little collective and therefore generating a small torque leaves only a small torque differential between the two rotors available to generate a yaw motion.

 

Hey MBot,

 

Yeah, I agree, perhaps just a very small amount would be sufficient? It would also help to start the yaw before coming to zero speed, if the hammer head is being performed at true vertical, since with some forward speed on your side the rudder can help.

 

I am thinking pitch to vertical, kill collective, as speed is close to zero yaw fully, give it a little collective, when nose is pointing down kill collective again, then increase collective during recovery.

 

Haven't tried that yet.

[ericinexile]

Forgot to mention Flight Director On, ALWAYS.

 

Hammerhead:

 

I find this works best if I trim for pitch only. Roll and Yaw I neutralize before trimming pitch ("cntl-enter" helps). Accerlerate low and hard down the runway at comfortable altitude (for me 10-15m). At the departure end pull 2g and as you approach 75-80 HNU push collective to zero. Full left "rudder" and add enough collective to help out then back to near-zero. As soon as the yaw begins with decent rate apply full opposite rudder. As the nose begins to align with the runway simultaneously neutralize the rudder and apply hard aft cyclic and enough collective to get a low RPM tone. You should bottom out at close to (but not below) your starting altitude and accelerating through 100+kph. To the right, rotor RPM gets extremely low but only momentarily and luckily with very little flap.

 

Funnel:

 

(Trim as above). So far, in my case, left manuevers look so-so and right, less so. Find a target (I use the runway numbers as the runway provides heading and rate info). Begin at 50-100m and apply left cyclic until full rudder holds the "target" under the pipper. If the target drifts to the right then feed in little jerks of right cyclic. If the target drifts left then relax the rudder a little or, in more extreme cases, feed in a little more left cyclic. I can manage this pretty smoothly to the left with about 25-30 nose down pitch. My goal is 45.

 

Smokin' Hole (in fact many holes were smoked in the making of this post)

Edited January 21, 2009 by ericinexile
FD

[jam599]

Hi all

 

Let me first say Kudos to ED; You have made a fantastic Simulator ;)

Haven't had this much fun in years!

 

My tips is:

 

Select Replay and open the ShowFlight.trk file under Demo. Press RCtr+Enter to get the Controls view.

 

Here they show Hammerhead turns, funnel, steep turns, hover++

 

And Flight Director (FD Mode button) is your friend for Acro flying, at first it felt a little sluggish but after an evening of trying it out I absolutely love it!

[LIONPRIDE]

.

 

 

why are we trying all these maneuvers ? You're not flying in an ATA situation where these moves are necessary. Maybe if you're doing a virtual airshow ... :noexpression:

.

Edited January 21, 2009 by LIONPRIDE

[jam599]

Eh... Well...

1. Because it's fun

 

2. Knowing the limitations and possibilities of the Black Hawk does not hurt when flying tactical.

 

3. Because it's fun ;)

[miguez]

2. Knowing the limitations and possibilities of the Black Hawk does not hurt when flying tactical.

 

4. Because the Black Shark is more maneuverable than the Black Hawk. (Sorry, had to do it ;))

[Sealpup]

In regards to doing a hammerhead in the Ka-50:

 

Does the 'shark's rudder work at low speeds? If so, you should be able to ease the nose over in a hammerhead enough for it to weathercock into the correct direction on the way down regardless of not having enough collective for it to yaw with torque.

 

Now if it'll actually do this, I dunno. I'm at work so I can't test it.

[Shepski]

Watch the airshow tracks in the "replay" section of the main menu.

 

Once it has started press F1 to view them from inside the cockpit.

[Slayer]

When Im playing around I use 50% or less fuel load and no ordinance, helps out tremendously with these types of manouvers.

 

Head tracking does help in a hammerhead, I'm not even watching the instruments. I just pull vertical while looking out the left side. Once my forward motion slows right before I start to slip backwards I initiate the turn. The increased SA of headtrack is very nice.

[LIONPRIDE]

Eh... Well...

1. Because it's fun

 

2. Knowing the limitations and possibilities of the Black Hawk does not hurt when flying tactical.

 

3. Because it's fun ;)

 

 

I'm a die-hard simulator fan in regards to procedures. I play checkers for 'fun' . It's just me geeking out ... sorry. I tend to stick to protocol.

 

Have fun doing loop-de-loops ... :thumbup:

 

 

.

[Chillspider]

theres no maneuvers for a quick turn around or dodging SAMS or Pop up attacks or only ATA.

[LIONPRIDE]

theres no maneuvers for a quick turn around or dodging SAMS or Pop up attacks or only ATA.

 

 

Well, the way I understand the U.S. doctrine, is that we go in slow and under cover. Shoot and move. Never over-fly dead target areas. Call in support if needed. A Hammer Head move it to return in a reciprocal direction. If I'm out running a missile, I'm not heading back in it's direction. I'm buggin' out low and fast behind trees and buildings. I see a lot of guys up at +700-ft in Multiplayer all the time. Those are the LockOn jet-jocks ... they get high scores ... but they get killed a lot.

 

Now old Russian doctrine use to be run in and overwhelm the enemy with fire power, but they had to change it up after Afghanistan.

 

 

 

.

[Nayles]

UPDATE:

 

Well I have pretty much got Hammerheads down now. Experimenting I found that if I reduced collective between 50-80 degrees of pitch up and then feed the collective back in at the top of the climb this was enough to induce the yaw necessary for a quick 180 degree turn once initiated by a flick of the rudder. I have certainly got the horizontal ballooning down to a minimum which is nice :D.

 

Rolls and loops are a different story however. Loops are easier and I have managed both but without any real elegance. The problem I am having is that I seem to temporarily lose control (or coordination or both) when inverted. I also find that in rolls the rotor blades will almost always clash when feeding back in the collective when rolling out from inverted. This seems to be the same for right and left hand rolls the only diffference being that rolling to the left seems a lot more sluggish than rolling to the right. I've got a feeling I am being too heavy handed owing to lack of experience.

 

Split-S are fun to do and I think I'll get those down before I have rolls sorted.

 

Not tried the funnel yet but I watched the airshow and Shepski tracks last night and I think I have the theory clear in my head (pitch forwards with a little bank and full opposite rudder).

 

And to those questioning why.... simply because you can... and also I don't think you can say you can -really- fly an aircraft until you are completely comfortable flying on the ragged edge with experience enough to know what that aircraft can and can't do. Added to which killing things isn't the be all and end all - not for me anyway.

[Tango]

I see a lot of guys up at +700-ft in Multiplayer all the time. Those are the LockOn jet-jocks ... they get high scores ... but they get killed a lot.

I only fly high altitude when I'm reasonably sure I'm not near a SAM or anything that will shoot me down so I can take advantage of higher ground speed on the way in to a target. It (should) also help with the fuel efficiency, too.

 

Once I'm near the target though, then I'm in the weeds. :D

 

Best regards,

Tango.