investigating Lower AI Skills Win more often in BVR fights

[Exorcet]

I've only been testing this for a short while, but I'm already seeing a trend. Ace AI tends to lose to Veteran and Trained AI in BVR fights. This happens because:

A - Ace shoots earlier than Vet/Trained, leading to lower missile Pk.

B - AI does not anticipate being fired upon and flies directly at the enemy until missiles go active.

To be given a fighting chance, Ace AI needs to have missile launch range set to halfway between Max and NEZ, while hopefully having a longer ranged missile than their opponents in the first place.

AI missile ranging logic needs to be looked at. The AI also needs tactics against preemptive missile launches, instead of waiting for a confirmed missile launch to react.

I've also noticed that mixed AI skill flights will stagger missile launches (because lower skill levels wait until closer range to shoot) and this seems to provide an advantage in that when flying together mid-high skill AI will take long range shots to pressure targets into maneuvering while low-mid skill AI take high Pk shots that are more likely to kill. By accident, mixed skill flights are using more advanced tactics than homogenized flights.

AI Skill Backwards Result.trk

[NineLine]

Thanks will look into it. 

I should note that the AI, I believe, has not been adapted to team fighting so for the mixed skills issues that might be part of it. 

[Exorcet]

36 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Thanks will look into it. 

I should note that the AI, I believe, has not been adapted to team fighting so for the mixed skills issues that might be part of it. 

I understand, but I was also hoping that short comings with the current AI could help develop the improved versions to come.

[Mad_Shell]

18 hours ago, NineLine said:

Thanks will look into it. 

I should note that the AI, I believe, has not been adapted to team fighting so for the mixed skills issues that might be part of it. 

The improved BVR AI is nice, my only grip with it is it never anticipates missiles launches. It only begins to crank once it has fired its own missile. If the enemy plane has longer range, or even same range missiles, it will always defend too late and die. 

The AI should take into account what the enemy plane is, what missiles it may carry, and plan accordingly (try some preemptive defending, crank, low alt, going cold and hot again...)

[NineLine]

On 1/8/2023 at 4:59 PM, Exorcet said:

I've only been testing this for a short while, but I'm already seeing a trend. Ace AI tends to lose to Veteran and Trained AI in BVR fights. This happens because:

A - Ace shoots earlier than Vet/Trained, leading to lower missile Pk.

B - AI does not anticipate being fired upon and flies directly at the enemy until missiles go active.

To be given a fighting chance, Ace AI needs to have missile launch range set to halfway between Max and NEZ, while hopefully having a longer ranged missile than their opponents in the first place.

AI missile ranging logic needs to be looked at. The AI also needs tactics against preemptive missile launches, instead of waiting for a confirmed missile launch to react.

I've also noticed that mixed AI skill flights will stagger missile launches (because lower skill levels wait until closer range to shoot) and this seems to provide an advantage in that when flying together mid-high skill AI will take long range shots to pressure targets into maneuvering while low-mid skill AI take high Pk shots that are more likely to kill. By accident, mixed skill flights are using more advanced tactics than homogenized flights.

AI Skill Backwards Result.trk 63.07 kB · 3 downloads

From the team:

Quote

 

It is correct. Ace level should engage at a longer range to initially put the target on the defensive, even if it results in that shot at a lower Pk.

AI launch range can also be set through the advanced waypoint actions.

 

Let me know if this covers it or if there is more you want me too take a look at, thanks!

[Exorcet]

2 minutes ago, NineLine said:

From the team:

Let me know if this covers it or if there is more you want me too take a look at, thanks!

Thanks NineLine, in that case, can I make a request that the AA missile launch range selection be made into a slider? In this particular case using the halfway between Max and NEZ works well, but it might not be ideal for other situations. The only other options are waiting for NEZ, which is probably too conservative or random, which is well, too random. Maximizing missile Pk will probably take trial and error with an adjustable slider depending on the planes and missiles being pitted against each other.

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, Mad_Shell said:

The improved BVR AI is nice, my only grip with it is it never anticipates missiles launches. It only begins to crank once it has fired its own missile. If the enemy plane has longer range, or even same range missiles, it will always defend too late and die. 

The AI should take into account what the enemy plane is, what missiles it may carry, and plan accordingly (try some preemptive defending, crank, low alt, going cold and hot again...)

Do you have tracks of this, the AI consistently dying and unable to defeat a missile? Ace for sure has been able to do so, I mean they are not infallible but they should be able to defeat missiles. 

9 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Thanks NineLine, in that case, can I make a request that the AA missile launch range selection be made into a slider? In this particular case using the halfway between Max and NEZ works well, but it might not be ideal for other situations. The only other options are waiting for NEZ, which is probably too conservative or random, which is well, too random. Maximizing missile Pk will probably take trial and error with an adjustable slider depending on the planes and missiles being pitted against each other.

Let me look into that and see. Thanks.

[Mad_Shell]

9 hours ago, NineLine said:

Do you have tracks of this, the AI consistently dying and unable to defeat a missile? Ace for sure has been able to do so, I mean they are not infallible but they should be able to defeat missiles. 

 I'll provide tracks later. If you want to test it on your side, you just need to put 2 AI against each other at long range.

[icecold951]

I too just noticed lower quality BVR skill. In a mission where I am the striker, my Vet escort wingman fired his 120s way to soon for a guy with only a limited number. Nine Line, that logic only works if you have the missiles to spare. I too have habitually used one or two at longer ranges to put them defensive. But that was when I was in missile truck loadout. Maybe they should take into account if they can spare the missiles that are deliberately 'wasted'.

[DukeAngus]

i haven't done any scientific study into the ai bvr but i find best results to delete all the advanced waypoint actions that are set by default, except the very first one, the first advanced waypoint is usually the action that you want the ai to take. once i stopped telling the ai the distance i wanted them to shoot the missile, i started having more fun fighting them. disclaimers, most of my missions the ai are attack me but have a few missions i have made that i sent ai out on their own to take care of business and they have done quite well. i have never tried the scenario that the ai only have 1 missile to kill the enemy.