Pulling too much AoA during dogfight

[Theodore42]

On 2/8/2023 at 7:23 PM, Aquorys said:

Well, if you're asking for it... in the video you posted you kind of flew that bird like an angles fighter around 2:15, just trying to keep it pointed straight towards the target, instead of establishing a flight path that would take you to an advantageous position (like a displacement roll or high yo-yo), which is why you overshot around 2:30. Regarding the general tactics you suggested, I flew a couple fights against an F-15 ace AI to see whether I would actually do differently what I thought I would do differently, and I don't remember ever using the airbrake to intentionally slow down to ~330. I would rather use that energy to gain altitude, so I can either use that to accelerate later, or to use the additional vertical space for maneuvering.

Hey thanks for the reply!

imo at 2:30 the overshoot was because I was at max power the whole time and should have throttled down. When you're behind a target and that close I think spoiling your speed is correct rather than executing a BFM because you want to get a kill and not play games. imo the cost of spoiling your speed is far less than the geometry you lose doing BFM because the Viper's acceleration is so excellent. But I could be wrong because angle fighters can spoil their speed too, especially when doing PvP rather than AI.

[Glide]

On 2/13/2023 at 4:59 PM, Theodore42 said:

the Viper's acceleration is so excellent

It's good, but it could use a boost IMHO.  I would like the AB to have more punch.

Since this is about angle of attack as well, I just want to encourage the use of rudder.  I find it best to "lead with the rudder" when you want to bank, and be ready to stomp on it when you want to pull the nose down and get out of a tight spot.  I also have a healthy amount of curve in my HOTAS pitch, roll, and rudder.  Experiment with what works best with your hardware. 

Here's a good test.  Roll into a bank and pull back on the stick.  You will notice the airspeed falling.  Add full rudder deflection, and then slowly let the stick out until the airspeed starts going back up.  That little zone there is the sweet spot.  Having more curve in Pitch, Roll, and Yaw makes this zone easier to find.

Now, lead with rudder and roll into the bank with full rudder.  Try to do the roll and the rudder at the same rate.  Then pull back gently on the stick until you see the airspeed start to drop.  When you get used to doing roll and rudder like that you find you get a lot more manoeuvring out of the jet without bleeding off that precious airspeed.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Glide

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I dunno, but from my little experience, unless the F-16 has enough air underneath, it is very hard to maintain > 320 knots while turning. One needs to climb at some point and it may create a good opportunity for the pursuer to get into one's six. Well, normally the AI gets real slow at this point.

The rudder manoeuvrer reminds me of flying in a F-14.  Big thanks.

[skywalker22]

13 hours ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

I dunno, but from my little experience, unless the F-16 has enough air underneath, it is very hard to maintain > 320 knots while turning. One needs to climb at some point and it may create a good opportunity for the pursuer to get into one's six. Well, normally the AI gets real slow at this point.

The rudder manoeuvrer reminds me of flying in a F-14.  Big thanks.

What did you do and why, that you dropped the speed bellow 320 kts? 

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Pull a little too hard (again) with little or no altitude to drop the nose onto...

[skywalker22]

2 hours ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

Pull a little too hard (again) with little or no altitude to drop the nose onto...

Well, I said it's not easy to master, specially to keep it above 400kns at all times - if possible of course (one circle surely not, even in 2-circle its very very difficult). Keep on trying, keep one eye (or check constantly) on you  HUD (or JHMCS) for CAS. With time you will get the feeling of speed, at least some approximation of it, so you won't need to look for it so often. Just don't pull to hard... its batter to be fast with less turn rate, then vise versa. If you are fast, you can always pull and turn more if needed, if you are slow you are literary stuck in the air and become a sitting duck when pulling more (or too much).

PS: in most cases if both pilots are equal skills, you in F-16 have very little chance of winning the dogfight against aircrafts which prefer one-circle fight, there is very little for you to do anything about it, maybe some luck or trying to overshoot the other pilot, or be creative, do something that will surprise the other one.

Edited February 21, 2023 by skywalker22

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

5 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

PS: in most cases if both pilots are equal you in F-16 have very little chance of winning the dogfight against aircrafts with prefer one-circle fight, there is very little for you to do anything about it, maybe some luck or trying to overshoot the opponent, or be creative, do something that will surprise the other guy.

This is particular true when most AI FC3 planes prefer 1-circle.

[skywalker22]

37 minutes ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

This is particular true when most AI FC3 planes prefer 1-circle.

Try F-16, it will go into 2 circle.

[skywalker22]

One more thing, since F-16 prefers 2-circle fight, you can always try to force 2-circle fight. Maybe not in the initial circle, but later on, in each confrontation. Just observe the opponent's each move, even after you two went by each other.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Using my own BFM mission, merge at 12000 ft, I think this can be done. Big thanks.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Side note: I find that MiG-23MLD is an entry-level rate "target" which works well for me. Next would be the F-15C which prefers rate fight also but is much more dangerous, but may not be as dangerous as another Viper.

[Glide]

2 minutes ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

MiG-23MLD

Try some SU-25s.  There are three different types.  They are easy to catch, and they will shoot back when threatened.  Great way to chase some slow movers to practice your technique.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Sigh...

 

[skywalker22]

@VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants that was pure luck, but whats more, you could also be dead as well. So try to avoid these kind of nose-to-nose confrontations. Its 50-50 who will win. At least I try to stay away from it. At least if you confront nose to nose try to keep your nose away from his, so he cannot shoot at you (and neithter you can't shoot at him of course). Look for other solutions. Best if to 2 circle, so you come behind him. I know its hard, but this is where F-16 shines the most.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Thanks @skywalker22! Yup, that was pure luck and more to the tendency of AI having premature......firing most of the time.

Question is: how do I "change" a 1-circle into 2-circle? Watch a lot of GS videos did not help.

I wonder, also, if I am closing in the bandit from the six, I cannot maintain the "420-knots" rule, can I?

[USA_Recon]

On 3/7/2023 at 10:31 AM, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

Thanks @skywalker22! Yup, that was pure luck and more to the tendency of AI having premature......firing most of the time.

Question is: how do I "change" a 1-circle into 2-circle? Watch a lot of GS videos did not help.

I wonder, also, if I am closing in the bandit from the six, I cannot maintain the "420-knots" rule, can I?

Two suggestions.
1. If you fly straight at bandit and don’t offset they will typically go one circle.  Create offset (put bandit outside canopy bow). Try to get a lead turn through the bandits control zone.  Offsetting keeps you out of a WEZ.  Slightly be higher or lower to avoid head on gun shots.

2. You can also merge, watch and wait to see the direction bandit turns and simply go opposite to setup the 2 circle. Control the fight don’t just be reactionary .  Don’t just blindly turn a certain way assuming that will be a two circle

speed is relative to bandit, use speed as a guide not as a robot.  Angles, aspect, closure is more important to understand 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by USA_Recon