investigating AIM-7 Use AI Error

[icecold951]

In many firing instances, upon firing an AIM-7, the AI immediately breaks the lock by taking an immediate evasive action without any incoming fire. I can see dropping he lock to evade an incoming shot, but not before any incoming fire.

Track and mission is quick AI only flight. No human control. F5 set up as target drone. F18 engages from ahead.

1.miz 1.trk

[NineLine]

Thanks I will check it out. 

[MARLAN_]

Because AI do the "dive to the deck" BVR tactic, the end up trashing their own missiles 100% of the time, noticed this while trying to test missile kinetics and after 10 attempts could not get a single test where the AI didn't trash their own missile.

Would be good to look into improving AI BVR tactics with more realistic tactics (i.e. shoot, crank, skate) rather than always diving to the deck and losing support of their missiles, and ending up with very low offensive capability due to their now low altitude.

I think AI could incorporate timelines (straightforward logical flow), I'm happy to explain in detail if needed.

AITrashTheirOwnMissiles.trk

[MARLAN_]

I locked the AI in the first test, was wondering if locking them matters.

In this test I was hands off the controls except to slightly move towards the end so I didn't just fly into a dead missile.

FYI: This is ACE AI

AITrashTheirOwnMissiles2.trk

Edited March 14, 2023 by MARLAN_

[Mad_Shell]

I agree with you, since day 1 of the new BVR AI I've criticized this behaviour, and a few others.

- the AI always cranks and dive after firing its missile(s). But cranking AND diving only makes sense if the enemy is very high threat, and you suspect your'e close to the MAR of the enemy plane. Watching AIs F-18 firing Aim-120C from 30 miles and diving, while they're against a Mig-21 is ridiculous. They give up altitude and offensive potential for nothing.

- the AI will ALWAYS go straight at the enemy until they fire their own missile. That means, we can see planes like Mig-21, Mirage F1, F5... happily go in a straight line to be slaughtered 100% of the time by superior planes and missiles. Against superior planes, they SHOULD either try to run away, or try to get closer by cranking, going cold then hot again, notching and hugging the ground... whatever it takes to try to preemptively trash enemy missiles and break radar lock to try to get closer and in range of their own missiles.

- the AI defensive maneuvers against active Fox-3 are kind of pathetic. They always try dive and notch, dropping chaff, never pulling more than like 3 or 4 Gs. If the AI estimates that the incoming missile is high energy, then it is acceptable behaviour (no hope to kinematically defeat the missile). But if the AI estimates that the missile is low energy, just going in a notch and praying it works is a really bad decision... the AI should maneuver hard instead.

 

[MARLAN_]

51 minutes ago, Mad_Shell said:

I agree with you, since day 1 of the new BVR AI I've criticized this behaviour, and a few others.

- the AI always cranks and dive after firing its missile(s). But cranking AND diving only makes sense if the enemy is very high threat, and you suspect your'e close to the MAR of the enemy plane. Watching AIs F-18 firing Aim-120C from 30 miles and diving, while they're against a Mig-21 is ridiculous. They give up altitude and offensive potential for nothing.

- the AI will ALWAYS go straight at the enemy until they fire their own missile. That means, we can see planes like Mig-21, Mirage F1, F5... happily go in a straight line to be slaughtered 100% of the time by superior planes and missiles. Against superior planes, they SHOULD either try to run away, or try to get closer by cranking, going cold then hot again, notching and hugging the ground... whatever it takes to try to preemptively trash enemy missiles and break radar lock to try to get closer and in range of their own missiles.

- the AI defensive maneuvers against active Fox-3 are kind of pathetic. They always try dive and notch, dropping chaff, never pulling more than like 3 or 4 Gs. If the AI estimates that the incoming missile is high energy, then it is acceptable behaviour (no hope to kinematically defeat the missile). But if the AI estimates that the missile is low energy, just going in a notch and praying it works is a really bad decision... the AI should maneuver hard instead.

 

Agree 1000%, hopefully, ED spends some time improving the AI BVR tactics to be much smarter. The current AI tactics feel like they came from a Youtube content creator.

[DukeAngus]

is this along the same lines?

[MARLAN_]

Sounds like the same issue yeah

I think the topic name should be changed to SARH or Missile usage (or something like that), since in my tests they used AA-10C and not AIM-7.