New better free Plane(s)

[shagrat]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Dragon1-1:

For professional software, you get enough free time to learn it, so that once it's done, you feel like you have to buy it so that you haven't wasted your time.

Plus a lawsuit, if you got caught without a license, that can cost your job/business, because the price is considerable higher.

Entertainment products are typically way less expensive, especially on a sale and customers are expected to make a decision to buy in less than half a year.

The free aircraft were a means for customers to work out if their hardware can handle the game, the TF-51D as a way to check, if they get to grips with the concept of clickable cockpits and the Su-25T, as a showcase for FC3 planes (as a less complex alternative).

With the 14-day-trials there is an easy way to test a specific ride, see if it runs fine on your rig, your controls setup capable of handling it and you are interested enough to buy it immediately, wait for the next sale, or if it's not for you, yet.

Again, the question remains, what would be the target audience for even more free stuff?

P.S.: we now even have another free map (Marianas) to test performance on a demanding map, with latest map technology.

 

[cfrag]

33 minutes ago, shagrat said:

9 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

For professional software, you get enough free time to learn it, so that once it's done, you feel like you have to buy it so that you haven't wasted your time.

Plus a lawsuit, if you got caught without a license, that can cost your job/business, because the price is considerable higher.

Entertainment products are typically way less expensive, especially on a sale and customers are expected to make a decision to buy in less than half a year.

Not to mention the fact that professional software is used to generate revenue for the business that purchases it. You build it into your business process. You refinance the cost with income. Of course the software vendor can be generous with demo time; they can bill you later when your business process depends on their product and you can't easily go back.

Professional software and their business models (the services that usually are part of the deal) are an entirely different universe compared to an entertainment title. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by cfrag

[Dragon1-1]

20 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Again, the question remains, what would be the target audience for even more free stuff?

Steam users coming to DCS without any idea what it is about, and how aircraft actually behave. Again, what is being asked is one free aircraft most people wouldn't have bought, a trainer with minimum avionics and armament capability. Something that could give them a taste of both basic air to air and air to ground. Su-25T performs poorly by ground attack standards, and TF-51 is a good choice for a free aircraft, but it's also only applicable to WWII experience.

[shagrat]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb Dragon1-1:

Steam users coming to DCS without any idea what it is about, and how aircraft actually behave. Again, what is being asked is one free aircraft most people wouldn't have bought, a trainer with minimum avionics and armament capability. Something that could give them a taste of both basic air to air and air to ground. Su-25T performs poorly by ground attack standards, and TF-51 is a good choice for a free aircraft, but it's also only applicable to WWII experience.

They simply need to install DCS World for free and trial any aircraft they are interested in and simply deinstall it afterwards.

[Dragon1-1]

Again, Steam users, so no free trials for them. Someone casually interested in DCS because it came up on Steam recommendations would not go out of his way to register on the e-shop, download the installer, install DCS and then install a module for a free trial. In fact, such a person won't know this is even an option. You need to woo them with "out of the box" content only. The current content is inadequate for that.

Free trials on Steam would be a good alternative, but this is not a thing, presumably due to Steam not supporting such a scheme. An occasional free week (the way they used to be done during the pandemic) would help, and likely be a big draw on Steam, especially if coupled with major sales, but from what I heard, it's a bit of a hassle for ED to set up.

[schmiefel]

26 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Again, Steam users, so no free trials for them.

Every user of the Steam version already gets two free maps and two AC, one of them, besides its non clickable cockpit, is a fully featured and capable A/G combat aircraft. That really should be enough to get more than a glimpse what DCS is about.

Please show me other fully featured flight simulations on steam where you get such a deep 'introduction' to the sim? If at all ED could revise the tutorial missions for those two AC to show the basic stuff and get newcomers attracted a bit better.

Maybe adding the workshop system via steam may bring other freely available AC like the wonderful A4 more to attention and let newcomers get them installed easily. But having an integrated add-on and mod support system would need quite a lot of development work that in my opinion should better be spent on urgent needed other systems and technology.

Edited March 6, 2023 by schmiefel
Typos fixed

[shagrat]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb Dragon1-1:

Again, Steam users, so no free trials for them. Someone casually interested in DCS because it came up on Steam recommendations would not go out of his way to register on the e-shop, download the installer, install DCS and then install a module for a free trial. In fact, such a person won't know this is even an option. You need to woo them with "out of the box" content only. The current content is inadequate for that.

Free trials on Steam would be a good alternative, but this is not a thing, presumably due to Steam not supporting such a scheme. An occasional free week (the way they used to be done during the pandemic) would help, and likely be a big draw on Steam, especially if coupled with major sales, but from what I heard, it's a bit of a hassle for ED to set up.

Steam Users can simply install DCS World from www.digitalcombatsimulator.com

like anyone else. There is nothing preventing them from installing, other than mindset. Similar to a free give away, that requires you to drive a 20 minute detour. Guess Steam Users would complain to their local Palmart, that the other shop has a free give away and the Palmart don't... 

[Dragon1-1]

8 minutes ago, shagrat said:

like anyone else. There is nothing preventing them from installing, other than mindset. Similar to a free give away, that requires you to drive a 20 minute detour. Guess Steam Users would complain to their local Palmart, that the other shop has a free give away and the Palmart don't... 

OK, so how are they going to find out? There's nothing on Steam page that tells you about the trials (except the reviews, mostly by chance), or that the e-shop even exists. I would not go to a free giveaway if I didn't know it was taking place. Duh. I'd like to see you take a 20 minute detour to a giveaway at a store you didn't even know was there, nevermind that it was having a giveaway. I don't know about you, but most Steam players are not psychic.

I'm talking about a scenario where someone sees DCS World in Steam recommendations and things "that looks fun, and it's free". Goes to store page, looks like a fun thing, installs, runs. No reading the reviews, no reading the forum, no researching the sim, no looking around the web for supplementary material. In fact, probably not even reading the store page all the way. If you don't grab the person's attention right there, you lost a customer. Currently, if you come to DCS without knowing what it is, you're likely to have a poor initial experience compared to, say, MSFS, and might end up abandoning the sim at this stage and leaving a bad review. In fact, if you look at negative Steam reviews, there's at least a few cases of exactly that. 

You can't require new players to put any amount of work into making the sim make sense and be fun. I'm also not taking a 20 minute detour to a store about which I know has nothing that I want, because it never had in the past. Even if I'm wrong this time, at that point I have no idea that I'm wrong, and no good way of finding out. A true "demo" aircraft like the T-45, showing both capabilities and, just as importantly, visual quality level of modern modules (neither free module is particularly pretty by modern standards), would address that problem. Better UI and better Steam store page would also help, but overall, the free version as it stands can leave a bad impression, and you really don't want that. The purpose of the demo is to sell the full product, after all.

[schmiefel]

19 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

There's nothing on Steam page that tells you about the trials (except the reviews, mostly by chance), or that the e-shop even exists.

Maybe I am just from another generation or a different (old) kind of gamer, but what about this shown right besides the long product description, where the first entry leads you directly to the DCS homepage? If I am interested in such a 'game' and the free to play part is not giving enough information I would have a look in other information sources presented by the publisher / developer ... but maybe I have a too old shool thinking nowadays...?

Edited March 6, 2023 by schmiefel

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Steam users coming to DCS without any idea what it is about, and how aircraft actually behave.

 

I am a Steam user. I have bought about 25 modules through Steam. I also have the main site install that I use just for free trials. I don't think that is an issue at all. 

 

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Again, what is being asked is one free aircraft most people wouldn't have bought, a trainer with minimum avionics and armament capability.

 

See below.

 

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Something that could give them a taste of both basic air to air and air to ground. Su-25T performs poorly by ground attack standards, and TF-51 is a good choice for a free aircraft, but it's also only applicable to WWII experience.

 

As previously mentioned, I took the SU-25T for a 700kph romp and dumped 256 rockets on the target in one go. Ran through again and fired a volley of 40 Zuni class rockets. The Hornet can only fire 32, the Harrier 16. The Warthog can't fire any Zuni class heavy rockets at all, and it certainly can't fire any of the several giant ass unguided rockets the Su-25T can. Not to mention the SU-25T carries Kh-29 guided missiles with ~1000lb warheads, or that it carries tons of bombs, including rocket powered concrete busters and cluster munitions. And multiple 23mm gun pods that track targets. And nighttime location & tracking with the Mercury pod. And pretty decent SEAD capability with the Phantasmagoria pod and anti-radiation missiles. And an internal cannon. And it can run the pants off an A-10. 

 

I have to ask, by what standard is that poor performance? 

 

For a free plane, it gives one hell of a taste test of ground pounding stew.

[shagrat]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Dragon1-1:

OK, so how are they going to find out? There's nothing on Steam page that tells you about the trials (except the reviews, mostly by chance), or that the e-shop even exists. I would not go to a free giveaway if I didn't know it was taking place. Duh. I'd like to see you take a 20 minute detour to a giveaway at a store you didn't even know was there, nevermind that it was having a giveaway. I don't know about you, but most Steam players are not psychic.

I'm talking about a scenario where someone sees DCS World in Steam recommendations and things "that looks fun, and it's free". Goes to store page, looks like a fun thing, installs, runs. No reading the reviews, no reading the forum, no researching the sim, no looking around the web for supplementary material. In fact, probably not even reading the store page all the way. If you don't grab the person's attention right there, you lost a customer. Currently, if you come to DCS without knowing what it is, you're likely to have a poor initial experience compared to, say, MSFS, and might end up abandoning the sim at this stage and leaving a bad review. In fact, if you look at negative Steam reviews, there's at least a few cases of exactly that. 

You can't require new players to put any amount of work into making the sim make sense and be fun. I'm also not taking a 20 minute detour to a store about which I know has nothing that I want, because it never had in the past. Even if I'm wrong this time, at that point I have no idea that I'm wrong, and no good way of finding out. A true "demo" aircraft like the T-45, showing both capabilities and, just as importantly, visual quality level of modern modules (neither free module is particularly pretty by modern standards), would address that problem. Better UI and better Steam store page would also help, but overall, the free version as it stands can leave a bad impression, and you really don't want that. The purpose of the demo is to sell the full product, after all.

So how do none steam users get to know about the trials I wonder? Google "DCS" or "digital combat simulator" or click on a link on a website like for example the steam store page where it says "visit website" ?

And just as a sidenote how is the TF-51D not a "true" demo aircraft. I am sure it is very deliberately chosen, because you cannot get your fix of quick Air-Quake and if you so desire need to decide on buying a full module. Same for the Su-25T as a "not too attractive" FC3 model.

If someone on Steam is interested in DCS in the first place he will sure manage to click a link to the products web page to get more info about the product... And if not, well, he can still google DCS mods and install a T-45C or A-4E Skyhawk community mod totally for free... 

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, schmiefel said:

If I am interested in such a 'game' and the free to play part is not giving enough information I would have a look in other information sources presented by the publisher / developer ... but maybe I have a too old shool thinking nowadays...?

He's getting all the information he thinks he needs. Again, he doesn't know what he doesn't know. There's no "FREE STUFF HERE" caption on the side panel, why would he ever want to look there? People don't even read manuals these days, and you expect them to start looking around the internet for something they don't even know exists.

1 hour ago, Beirut said:

I am a Steam user. I have bought about 25 modules through Steam. I also have the main site install that I use just for free trials. I don't think that is an issue at all. 

It's not an issue for you. You've been here long enough to have been here before the trials. We're talking a fresh-faced newbie who stumbled upon the sim and is just trying it out. I've been there, once. When I first came across DCS, if I'd been told to download the sim again through a browser (over ADSL connection I had no alternatives to until about a month ago, good luck getting a download that big done without the connection dropping), just to access some free trials, I'd be very likely to say "eh, screw it, I'll stick to FlightGear". In fact, the first time, that's exactly what happened, I saw the state DCS was in back then, and thought "nope, not worth the money they're asking". 

Either way, hoops to jump. Newcomers don't appreciate having to jump through hoops. The goal is to turn passing curiosity into lasting interest and ultimately, into a purchase. Free trials are only doing that to people coming through ED webpage in first place.

1 hour ago, Beirut said:

I have to ask, by what standard is that poor performance? 

It handles like an airliner. Sure, it can carry a good load, but it's not particularly fun to fly, as far as combat aircraft go, particularly when loaded up with ordnance. It's less nimble than both the A-10 or Su-25A. Unless you're already somewhat experienced with lining up your attack runs, it's annoying to turn and doesn't feel like a "high performance" plane at all. It's just too sedate to be a good introduction to a sim dominated by multirole fighters.

12 minutes ago, shagrat said:

And just as a sidenote how is the TF-51D not a "true" demo aircraft. I am sure it is very deliberately chosen, because you cannot get your fix of quick Air-Quake and if you so desire need to decide on buying a full module. Same for the Su-25T as a "not too attractive" FC3 model.

There's nothing wrong with TF-51D, other than the fact it's a WWII aircraft. If you want to demo DCS:WWII, great, it does the job. If you come for jets, you get a very unattractive, ugly and slow FC3 plane. It carries a lot of ordnance, sure, but that's it. It might leave you with impression that modern jets are not a whole lot of fun to fly on a realistic simulator. That's certainly the impression I've got when I first tried DCS. The demo failed at its purpose of making me want to buy any real module, as I wasn't interested in WWII and the Su-25T wasn't as fun to fly as I hoped it'd be.

What I want is an equivalent to a TF-51D for modern jets. Sparse avionics, minimal weapon load, but a HUD and all the basics you need to get started, on top of being just plain fun to fly on its own. You can throw the T-45 or T-38 around the sky if you want, unlike the Su-25T, but like the TF-51D. OTOH, the trainers aren't going to be of much use in airquake, even if they can carry a gun, to win against a combat jet you'd need far more skill than a typical newcomer would have. Plus, no good AA missiles on those.

Again, our starting point is casual interest. I don't go look around developer websites for most games I pick up on Steam. DCS Steam store page doesn't suggest there's any information amiss, so no, they won't go to Google and find out the sim is moddable, or that there are free trials. That's the sort of thing that comes after you find out you like the base game and want to find out more.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[shagrat]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Dragon1-1:

People don't even read manuals these days, and you expect them to start looking around

Yeah, sounds like typical study sim customer that would have a blast with a DCS full fidelity module and the learning curve...

[Dragon1-1]

Just now, shagrat said:

Yeah, sounds like typical study sim customer that would have a blast with a DCS full fidelity module and the learning curve...

Interactive tutorials tell you most of what you need to know for most aircraft, particularly if you're going to stick to ground attack, like most offline DCS players supposedly do. Besides, you don't need to reach a "typical" customer, because most of those people won't need much incentive (there's no competition in the market, so DCS is the only option). If ED was to concern itself only with those, there'd be no need to offer anything for free. The trick is to try to find customers who are not yet invested in that sort of thing. Many of them won't like it, but some will. It's not hard to sell to people who know that they want/need your product, not if you're the only one in that market, at least. The real trick is selling to those who don't know that.

[shagrat]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Dragon1-1:

What I want is an equivalent to a TF-51D for modern jets. Sparse avionics, minimal weapon load, but a HUD and all the basics you need to get started, on top of being just plain fun to fly on its own.

Hmmm, so you want something it's ok, just because you don't like the Su-25T?

If you can find a developer studio that is willing to invest ressources into the development of  a "free modern Jet with sparse avionics, minimal weapon load, but a HUD" for advertising DCS and write the investment off as loss, your welcome. I doubt you will find one, as the investment is considerable.

[shagrat]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Dragon1-1:

Interactive tutorials tell you most of what you need to know for most aircraft, particularly if you're going to stick to ground attack, like most offline DCS players supposedly do. 

Actually, they don't, that's why there are Chuck's Guides lots of checklists and a multitude of YouTube channels that focus on DCS tutorials.

But we made our points, I am sure if ED sees the need for new and innovative ways to approach customers, they will revisit the free-to-play option or in the meantime Valve may adapt the Steam Store to allow for time bombed limited trial installs. 

[Dragon1-1]

6 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Hmmm, so you want something it's ok, just because you don't like the Su-25T?

Which part of "complete newcomer" did you miss? I remember when I was one, and I'm telling you my impressions upon first coming into DCS. Those impressions were not great, and Su-25T specifically put me off. I came back because I'm enough of an aviation enthusiast to know it's not particularly representative, but if the only other sim supported VR at the start of the pandemic, that'd have been a different story.

Quote

If you can find a developer studio that is willing to invest ressources into the development of  a "free modern Jet with sparse avionics, minimal weapon load, but a HUD" for advertising DCS and write the investment off as loss, your welcome. I doubt you will find one, as the investment is considerable.

Already found one, the T-45C team. That's a "developer studio" (admittedly, not officially incorporated) that made exactly the ship this sim needs. ED can either contract them to make a demo aircraft, or make something slightly simpler (like the T-45A, similar but no MFDs) themselves. Also, the investment isn't written off as a loss any more than marketing is, this is part of marketing.

1 minute ago, shagrat said:

Actually, they don't, that's why there are Chuck's Guides lots of checklists and a multitude of YouTube channels that focus on DCS tutorials.

No, they're for people who don't like interactive ones for some reason. A tutorial also isn't the same thing as a checklist. I needed none of that to start flying the A-10C, or almost any other aircraft. The only ones in which I did need to head to YouTube were mostly EA aircraft with incomplete training missions. You need outside sources to learn tactics and air combat techniques in particular, but you can get started without. Also, missions (or campaigns, such as Speed and Angels or Iron Flag) are perfectly capable of teaching that.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[shagrat]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Dragon1-1:

Already found one, the T-45C team. That's a "developer studio" (admittedly, not officially incorporated) that made exactly the ship this sim needs. ED can either contract them to make a demo aircraft, or make something slightly simpler (like the T-45A, similar but no MFDs) themselves. Also, the investment isn't written off as a loss any more than marketing is, this is part of marketing.

There are to blocking points in that statement: ED needs to issue a contract and the team needs to apply for, secure and pay (!) a license agreement from the company owning the intellectual property to the T-45C, likely Boeing.

That isn't really cheap either... 

Edit: and likely verify and proof they have written permission, agreements to every part of the model, from textures, to 3D-Models if they didn't create those from scratch by themselves. Or they need to redo these without violating property rights.

Edited March 6, 2023 by shagrat

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Already found one, the T-45C team. That's a "developer studio" (admittedly, not officially incorporated) that made exactly the ship this sim needs. ED can either contract them to make a demo aircraft, or make something slightly simpler (like the T-45A, similar but no MFDs) themselves. Also, the investment isn't written off as a loss any more than marketing is, this is part of marketing.

There are significant differences between making a commercial product and a free mod. Primarily that all the work needs to be original. So the commercial product is much more difficult to accomplish. It’s possible for a mod to make the leap but it has to meet that requirement among others. So equating these to the official content isn’t a fair comparison. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Dragon1-1]

Again, this should be seen as a marketing expense. Spend money to make money, first impressions mean a lot. ED made the free Marianas terrain, and are making one for WWII, so they're clearly not averse to spend money on something that doesn't directly bring in income. 

The point is, it wasn't an impossible amount of work. I don't think T-45C team used any non-original assets, and ED already owns any sim code they might have relied upon.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[Beirut]

15 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

 

It's not an issue for you. You've been here long enough to have been here before the trials.

 

Although I'm exceedingly good looking  I'm not the sharpest cookie in the tool shed. If I could figure it out, anyone could. It's not rocket surgery.

 

If a company says "Hey, wanna try 45 planes and helicopters and a bunch of great maps all for free?", and Joe Flightsimhead can't rub enough neurons together to hash it out, then Joe should go back to bed.

 

15 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It handles like an airliner. Sure, it can carry a good load, but it's not particularly fun to fly, as far as combat aircraft go, particularly when loaded up with ordnance. It's less nimble than both the A-10 or Su-25A. Unless you're already somewhat experienced with lining up your attack runs, it's annoying to turn and doesn't feel like a "high performance" plane at all. It's just too sedate to be a good introduction to a sim dominated by multirole fighters.

 

I think you're being too harsh on our poor little Su-25T. Sure there are weak points - the exterior model sucks - but it has enough strengths to qualify as a solid ground pounder. One thing that might go unnoticed is the size of the MFD and it's proximity to the HUD. You can have a clear view of flying and targeting at the same time. I like that. I just busted a tank with a great big missile using the Mercury pod, which had a surprisingly good IR picture. This is not a low performance machine. And it's free.

 

Free maps, free planes, dozens of free trials choices, months and months and months of free flying all the best planes and choppers............. and it's still not enough? 

 

I'm sorry but I don't buy it. There is a point where one should step back and just say "Thanks".

[shagrat]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Dragon1-1:

Again, this should be seen as a marketing expense. Spend money to make money, first impressions mean a lot. ED made the free Marianas terrain, and are making one for WWII, so they're clearly not averse to spend money on something that doesn't directly bring in income. 

So you have a good ROI calculation backing that statement? That is a considerable investment you need to make, so it better pays off.

[SharpeXB]

9 hours ago, Evoman said:

That is why a AT-38B trainer variant would be the ideal free aircraft.

This is problematic in several ways

First that creating a full fidelity module, even one that seems similar to an existing one, specifically to just give away for free is likely to be cost prohibitive. 
Second that video game players don’t need trainer aircraft since all the real world reasons these are necessary don’t exist in a game. You can go straight to flying an F-16 if that’s what excites and motivates you. A new player would probably think the trainer is too dull. 

[Dragon1-1]

1 minute ago, Beirut said:

Free maps, free planes, dozens of free trials choices, months and months and months of free flying all the best planes and choppers............. and it's still not enough? 

And you still don't get it. It's not about what you can theoretically get. It's about first impressions. Particularly for Steam users casually stumbling on the sim. All the things you list are not in the picture for that crucial first moment. They might be for someone who heard about DCS and wants to look for it, not for someone who saw an ad and wants to see what's behind it. 

Say "thanks" all you want, but right now, a person in the same position I was in when I first downloaded DCS World might, just like me, end up saying "no, thanks" instead. Look at negative reviews on Steam, that's about the only place you'll hear from people who tried and didn't like it.

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, shagrat said:

So you have a good ROI calculation backing that statement? That is a considerable investment you need to make, so it better pays off.

One can only speculate at the cost of making these modules by looking at the many years it takes to complete them. They aren’t cheap.