reported earlier Yes ground fire accuracy again.

[Gunfreak]

So with the exception of general DCS performance, the number one bug/core game fault is ground unit accuracy.  The complaint comes up often all over the DCS sphere. 

Flying an F16 or F18 the unrealistic ground unit accuracy is an annoyance. Flying WW2 or helicopter it can be game breaking. 

It seems ground units use the exact same aim logic be it infantry with a bolt action rifle. Machine guns or flak. And unlike performance which ED has addressed and now seem closer to a big improvement,  we haven't heard anything about fixing ground units accuracy. I would think the release of Hind or Apache would be appropriate times do fixing this but apparently not.

And I don't understand how hard it can be to fix. Whatever numbers are used in the accuracy calculations,  put the numbers lower, a lot lower.

[79Au]

In my opinion it's not just the aiming/lead calculation, the dispersion/recoil is also very unrealistic, at least in a COIN type of scenario. The shots are always waaaay too close together for a guy firing his AK from 500+ meters away. But for some units it seems to be modelled correctly, or at least it's more plausible. The shilka for example. But infantry and technicals are a nightmare.

On the flip side, the current low disopersion and perfect aiming makes it somewhat easy to dodge the bullets as long as you keep jinking constantly. (you have to be aware of threat) A higher dispersion would make it harder to dodge the salvos. At the moment, it's "everything or nothing", you either get hit by the entire salvo, or the entire salvo flies by, which is not desirable or realistic.

Because, I believe IRL pilots (even helo pilots) mostly talk about single hits in podcasts and other media.

[Gunfreak]

28 minutes ago, 79Au said:

In my opinion it's not just the aiming/lead calculation, the dispersion/recoil is also very unrealistic, at least in a COIN type of scenario. The shots are always waaaay too close together for a guy firing his AK from 500+ meters away. But for some units it seems to be modelled correctly, or at least it's more plausible. The shilka for example. But infantry and technicals are a nightmare.

On the flip side, the current low disopersion and perfect aiming makes it somewhat easy to dodge the bullets as long as you keep jinking constantly. (you have to be aware of threat) A higher dispersion would make it harder to dodge the salvos. At the moment, it's "everything or nothing", you either get hit by the entire salvo, or the entire salvo flies by, which is not desirable or realistic.

Because, I believe IRL pilots (even helo pilots) mostly talk about single hits in podcasts and other media.

The problem is jinking isn't really a thing in real life. If you go in for an attack run(ww2 bombing, helicopter rocket/gun run) you stay on target, as jinking just makes you miss and you either have to do it again or the guy after you has to) speed is your only defence,  but speed doesn't appear to be a factor at all in ground unit hit rate) 

If flak was as deadly in real life as in DCS, no aircraft carrier, no airfield or defended position would ever have been  successfully bombed.

[79Au]

I never said it's a good practice to avoid bullets during an attack run, But it's funny to see these laser beams missing you every time, as long as you keep changing your direction of movement. A couple meters off the calculated course is enough and you're golden.

Edited March 5, 2023 by 79Au

[Raviar]

the Groud Unit snipe and headshot the pilots!
if you add 20 infantry not even AAA and be on 500ft low pass by 0.9 mach they can hit the plane by AK ! this is so damn ridiculous

[NineLine]

On 3/7/2023 at 2:06 AM, Raviar said:

the Groud Unit snipe and headshot the pilots!
if you add 20 infantry not even AAA and be on 500ft low pass by 0.9 mach they can hit the plane by AK ! this is so damn ridiculous

Please supply a track, as I have said in proper bug threads I have reported some aspects of this but without proper info, and tracks these posts are not helpful. Thanks. 

[SullyFUBAR]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

Please supply a track, as I have said in proper bug threads I have reported some aspects of this but without proper info, and tracks these posts are not helpful. Thanks. 

Surely tracks from previous complaints on this exist? Besides, isn't this a Core Wish List ask and not a bug report anyway? 

Edited March 30, 2023 by SullyFUBAR

[NineLine]

On 3/30/2023 at 4:15 PM, SullyFUBAR said:

Surely tracks from previous complaints on this exist? Besides, isn't this a Core Wish List ask and not a bug report anyway? 

 

When someone makes a claim like "the Groud Unit snipe and headshot the pilots!" I want to see a track of that, I have not seen this in general. 

As I have tagged this thread, some aspects are already reported but I have not seen the above claim. 

 

On 3/5/2023 at 11:28 AM, Gunfreak said:

The problem is jinking isn't really a thing in real life. If you go in for an attack run(ww2 bombing, helicopter rocket/gun run) you stay on target, as jinking just makes you miss and you either have to do it again or the guy after you has to) speed is your only defence,  but speed doesn't appear to be a factor at all in ground unit hit rate) 

If flak was as deadly in real life as in DCS, no aircraft carrier, no airfield or defended position would ever have been  successfully bombed.

Speed works depending on how you are flying in comparison to the FLAK unit. And you only need to make subtle movements up to the last minute you need to line up your drop. 

So unless you have tracks it's hard to say if it's an AI issue or a player issue. We have already done much work with WWII FLAK, so I need to see tracks to enact change if any is needed.  

 

On 3/5/2023 at 10:04 AM, Gunfreak said:

So with the exception of general DCS performance, the number one bug/core game fault is ground unit accuracy.  The complaint comes up often all over the DCS sphere. 

Flying an F16 or F18 the unrealistic ground unit accuracy is an annoyance. Flying WW2 or helicopter it can be game breaking. 

It seems ground units use the exact same aim logic be it infantry with a bolt action rifle. Machine guns or flak. And unlike performance which ED has addressed and now seem closer to a big improvement,  we haven't heard anything about fixing ground units accuracy. I would think the release of Hind or Apache would be appropriate times do fixing this but apparently not.

And I don't understand how hard it can be to fix. Whatever numbers are used in the accuracy calculations,  put the numbers lower, a lot lower.

Breaking their accuracy is not the answer, this will break their accuracy for other tasks such as shooting at other ground units, etc. Its not true that we havent commented on this, we have and said that there are things we need to look at, but for the time being there are things you can do. You can, if they are shooting your, restrict infantry from engaging air units. 

I am not just asking for tracks because I am lazy, in fact I just lined up 120 M1 Grand units along a runway, 60 on each side. If I made a 500kmph pass I had maybe one guy get a lucky shot off but he hits the tail end of my plane and does no real damage. If I lined up at the same speed and fired on them, I pretty much mowed them down with no return fire due to all the dead units. 

Jinking does not need to be huge movements, even the slightest jinking can throw of visual aim, and this is seen in DCS as well. If you fly straight on in at a FLAK unit, they have an emergency shot set up with a short time and a Hail Mary shot, even if the timing of the fuse is off, the shell passing through you will ruin your day. Suggesting the jinking did not happen in real life is wrong. Also jinking isnt just aggressive side to side, even slight altitude shifts can help. 

But again, tracks if you want to prove your point, there might be something I am missing and am happy to take a look but just saying its broken will not get it fixed faster. 

[Gunfreak]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

When someone makes a claim like "the Groud Unit snipe and headshot the pilots!" I want to see a track of that, I have not seen this in general. 

As I have tagged this thread, some aspects are already reported but I have not seen the above claim. 

 

Speed works depending on how you are flying in comparison to the FLAK unit. And you only need to make subtle movements up to the last minute you need to line up your drop. 

So unless you have tracks it's hard to say if it's an AI issue or a player issue. We have already done much work with WWII FLAK, so I need to see tracks to enact change if any is needed.  

 

Breaking their accuracy is not the answer, this will break their accuracy for other tasks such as shooting at other ground units, etc. Its not true that we havent commented on this, we have and said that there are things we need to look at, but for the time being there are things you can do. You can, if they are shooting your, restrict infantry from engaging air units. 

I am not just asking for tracks because I am lazy, in fact I just lined up 120 M1 Grand units along a runway, 60 on each side. If I made a 500kmph pass I had maybe one guy get a lucky shot off but he hits the tail end of my plane and does no real damage. If I lined up at the same speed and fired on them, I pretty much mowed them down with no return fire due to all the dead units. 

Jinking does not need to be huge movements, even the slightest jinking can throw of visual aim, and this is seen in DCS as well. If you fly straight on in at a FLAK unit, they have an emergency shot set up with a short time and a Hail Mary shot, even if the timing of the fuse is off, the shell passing through you will ruin your day. Suggesting the jinking did not happen in real life is wrong. Also jinking isnt just aggressive side to side, even slight altitude shifts can help. 

But again, tracks if you want to prove your point, there might be something I am missing and am happy to take a look but just saying its broken will not get it fixed faster. 

Why do we as the players have to fix and adapt to the game in unrealistic ways. Instead of you the developers fixing it.

And it would be perfectly fine to decrease the accuracy even if it affects how the ground units shots at other ground units because as of now ground vs ground fights are also super quick blood baths. Real ground combat can last for hours even with just a few dozen menn/units. Not so in DCS. So again no downside to decrease ground accuracy.

Don't need tracks. Saying you need tracks for the fact that ground units are to accurate is like standing in the rain and asking for tracks to prove its raining. Does ED play their own game? I understand they probably spend most of the time testing very specific things.  But mabye try and play play it. 

It's quite easy if you fly realistically do you get shot down an unrealistically amount of times from ground fire. Then something is wrong. 

 

Asking players to make the game more unrealistic (putting restrictions on infantry, machine guns,  armor and AAA) to compensate for the games already unrealistic ground fire accuracy isn't  fix. It makes the game lesser.  It's not the job of the players to Macgyver the game to make it kinda work. It's the job of the developer to fix it.

 

[NineLine]

9 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Why do we as the players have to fix and adapt to the game in unrealistic ways. Instead of you the developers fixing it.

And it would be perfectly fine to decrease the accuracy even if it affects how the ground units shots at other ground units because as of now ground vs ground fights are also super quick blood baths. Real ground combat can last for hours even with just a few dozen menn/units. Not so in DCS. So again no downside to decrease ground accuracy.

Don't need tracks. Saying you need tracks for the fact that ground units are to accurate is like standing in the rain and asking for tracks to prove its raining. Does ED play their own game? I understand they probably spend most of the time testing very specific things.  But mabye try and play play it. 

It's quite easy if you fly realistically do you get shot down an unrealistically amount of times from ground fire. Then something is wrong. 

 

Asking players to make the game more unrealistic (putting restrictions on infantry, machine guns,  armor and AAA) to compensate for the games already unrealistic ground fire accuracy isn't  fix. It makes the game lesser.  It's not the job of the players to Macgyver the game to make it kinda work. It's the job of the developer to fix it.

 

You are asking for a different unrealistic response. But that is fine, if you do not want to supply tracks then I will assume beyond what has already reported nothing else is wrong, no one is getting head shotted by ground units, or whatever the claim is. 

I am suggesting as well you are not flying realistically if you are not flying defensively. Then I cannot tell without tracks, but as I said that is fine, it is not mandatory. 

In the future please use the search function to find out if things have been commented on or reported before making new threads or comments that are simply not true. Thanks.