Basic BFM question

[skypickle]

I have been doing this Campaign

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/shop/campaigns/f-5e_abfm_campaign/

It pits an F5E as an aggressor against various other aircraft, meaning you have to shoot them down. After the merge, I cant seem to get behind the AI. Is there a cheat sheet to win these encounters or at least a brief instructional video on how someone beat each mission? I dont really know what to do. After the merge, I keep tally on the bandit and turn into the same circle he does at 350-450 knots. I keep the turn in burner so as not to slow down and it is usually something >60 degree bank. In this one circle I get a few head on passes but never a hit. There is really only one opportunity for a radar lock to use radar assissted guns (the first pass) but after that, it's all just eyeball.

I try turning opposite after the merge to make a two circle (to get behind him) but that never works.

And this is on easy against another F5! I cant believe how much I suck at this. And I thought I knew how to fly the the jet.

[Sarowa]

The AI cheats. They don't bleed energy the same way you do. As far as I can tell, the AI is primarily tuned to be challenging to 4th-gen fighters that regain energy much more quickly. This poses a big problem for aircraft like the F-5 and MiG-21.

If you want to learn BFM in the F-5, honestly the best place is probably the Enigma Cold War (ECW) multiplayer server.

[=475FG= Dawger]

Proper BFM works against the AI. You may or may not actually get a shot but BFM works. 
 

Its pretty simple minded. It reacts to what you are doing. If AI seems to be stuck doing the same thing, its because that is what you are doing. 
 

BFM is a deep subject and you are jumping right in the middle fighting dissimilar opponents without a good foundation in similar 1 v 1 BFM

If you are struggling against an easy similar bandit, you need to start at the beginning of BFM. That would be some very basic formation joins and intercepts combined with study of basic concepts. ( Pursuit Curves, Lead Turns, and follow on BFM)

Good luck. However, don’t get discouraged. 99% of DCS players are generally clueless WRT BFM and mastering the basics properly will make you a killer. 

[skypickle]

16 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

 

If you are struggling against an easy similar bandit, you need to start at the beginning of BFM. That would be some very basic formation joins and intercepts combined with study of basic concepts. ( Pursuit Curves, Lead Turns, and follow on BFM)

Good luck. However, don’t get discouraged. 99% of DCS players are generally clueless WRT BFM and mastering the basics properly will make you a killer. 

I have done those but cannot get into a lead turn. When I pull lead, I lose speed. So when I am in a one circle after the merge in this campaign, I am chasing an opponent in the same airframe. I have tried to execute a pirouette to take a shortcut around the circle but when I do, I feel like the jet is stuck in jello.

[Dragon1-1]

Similar air combat is often the most difficult, actually. You don't have any areas where you're better than he is, so you have to out-BFM him. I think the AI still cheats a little, but most importantly, it's not brain-dead now, and uses actual dogfighting techniques. You need to turn at the right moment, maybe enter a bit fast, in order for that first pull to bring your speed into corner. In the F-5, getting slow is far easier than getting fast, so err on the side of fast to give yourself margins. Leave the throttle parked in full AB until you start gaining angles. Your own worst enemy in an F-5 is your own drag.

Watch some videos on how to turn, in order to see what a lead turn really is, and how it really looks like from the cockpit. It's not the same as pulling lead, it sounds like you're not getting to the point where the latter is a good idea. Never pull lead until you're sure you're going to shoot, otherwise you've just wasted a lot of energy. Stick to lag until you're turning with the banding with plenty of room left on the G-meter. Be patient, don't be afraid of going in for a long fight, similar fights tend to end up in a deck chase unless there's a massive skill difference. Keep up marginal gains in angles for long enough, and you'll eventually be able to shoot him straight in the tailpipe, of course you should pull lead and shoot long before that point.

[Andy1966]

16 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Similar air combat is often the most difficult, actually. You don't have any areas where you're better than he is, so you have to out-BFM him. I think the AI still cheats a little, but most importantly, it's not brain-dead now, and uses actual dogfighting techniques. You need to turn at the right moment, maybe enter a bit fast, in order for that first pull to bring your speed into corner. In the F-5, getting slow is far easier than getting fast, so err on the side of fast to give yourself margins. Leave the throttle parked in full AB until you start gaining angles. Your own worst enemy in an F-5 is your own drag.

Watch some videos on how to turn, in order to see what a lead turn really is, and how it really looks like from the cockpit. It's not the same as pulling lead, it sounds like you're not getting to the point where the latter is a good idea. Never pull lead until you're sure you're going to shoot, otherwise you've just wasted a lot of energy. Stick to lag until you're turning with the banding with plenty of room left on the G-meter. Be patient, don't be afraid of going in for a long fight, similar fights tend to end up in a deck chase unless there's a massive skill difference. Keep up marginal gains in angles for long enough, and you'll eventually be able to shoot him straight in the tailpipe, of course you should pull lead and shoot long before that point.

 Hi, and yes well said Dragon. The BFM is to put yourself in a position to be able to pull the lead to shoot. Every situation is different, so you have to decide: am I going for a lead pursuit, or a lag pursuit? and how is the easiest way to get in phase with him to get an angle to shoot? its all about angles.

[=475FG= Dawger]

5 hours ago, skypickle said:

I have done those but cannot get into a lead turn. When I pull lead, I lose speed. So when I am in a one circle after the merge in this campaign, I am chasing an opponent in the same airframe. I have tried to execute a pirouette to take a shortcut around the circle but when I do, I feel like the jet is stuck in jello.

Again, you have to start at the beginning.

A lead turn and pulling lead are two completely different things. Lead turns are actually flown almost exclusively in lag. Fighter pilots have a disparaging term for lead turns flown in lead because the result is you put the bandit in your rear hemisphere.

You really have to start at the beginning.

Its easiest with a competent BFM instructor but you can accomplish much of the fundamental skills and knowledge with well organized study and some simple mission editor creations.

It is a fair amount of work and you really have to want to learn the fundamentals, but if you skip a foundation in the basics its hard to truly understand what and why you are doing something.

BFM is extremely simple, in theory.

There are only two maneuvers and all you are trying to do is attain a  trail formation (separation determined by the weapon) for enough time to employ the weapon.

That is all there is to it.

So you start from the beginning.

In this case, the beginning is joining in formation on a target that wants you in formation.

If you can't join in formation with a friend who wants you in formation, you will be hopeless trying to do the same to a hostile aircraft.

While this is obviously true, the vast majority of DCS players don't have the first clue how to do formation joins and intercepts.

They immediately assume military air forces of the world spend countless millions of hours and huge sums of treasure learning and practicing these skills for airshows.

Two simple drills.

1. Joining in formation on a turning, friendly target. A nice gentle constant turn (less than 4 G). You need to be able to quickly slide into formation using geometry, not throttle. If you find yourself in a tail chase using afterburner, you don't understand how to apply pursuit curves to solve your angle and closure problems.

2. Practice joining into formation on a target coming straight at you. If you can't slide into a close trail formation (less than 300 feet separation) on a target flying straight and level without ending up in a tail chase in after burner, your issues will revolve around creating turning room and flying proper lead turns, which are a slightly more advanced pursuit curves laboratory.

Once the two above drills are extremely easy to do, you are probably ready to start diving into Turn Circle Offensive BFM.

Edited March 23, 2023 by =475FG= Dawger

[skypickle]

Thank you Dawger. #1 I have done. #2 is what I am trying to learn. As the target comes at me, and passes me (merge) I have to quickly reverse direction. I keep tally on the bogey and pull to turn into him- but he is turning as well and we end up in a one circle.

[GGTharos]

#2 is to be done on a cooperative target so you can learn.  Intercept a tanker.

[=475FG= Dawger]

9 hours ago, skypickle said:

Thank you Dawger. #1 I have done. #2 is what I am trying to learn. As the target comes at me, and passes me (merge) I have to quickly reverse direction. I keep tally on the bogey and pull to turn into him- but he is turning as well and we end up in a one circle.

Cold, close aboard merges make me pull my hair out. That is not something you would EVER use in a fight or in learning. It has only one purpose and nothing to do with what you are doing now.

You should be maneuvering well prior to the merge or you will never achieve the desired result.

You should be constantly predicting where your opponent will be in the future and maneuvering to put your aircraft there a split second after your opponent arrives there. That is the essence of the thing. Predict, maneuver, evaluate, repeat. Boyd’s OODA loop. 

You can set a aircraft to fly in a straight line and not maneuver in the mission editor. It doesn’t need to be a tanker. Another F-5 is the best choice at this point. 
 

Here is a video on the subject I made a few years ago. it may help.

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by =475FG= Dawger

[skypickle]

@=475FG= Dawger

thank you. subbed to your videos (though it would be nice to see a playlist labeled 'instructional'. but your content is engaging)

that word, predict.

now all the crazy moves in BFM and ACM start to make sense. So many tac views are analyzed but that word is never mentioned. Your lead turn is smooth. And achieves what I want to do with a pirouette that I can never make 'violent enough'.

Of course, who would think of telegraphing his intentions to a bogey coming straight at you. but that cost is well worth the result. Unfortunately, the bandit will respond in kind and as you turn left, so will he. And the one circle will be born again. And when I see that, the gentle turn you scribed in your tacview then needs to become tighter.

 

[=475FG= Dawger]

29 minutes ago, skypickle said:

@=475FG= Dawger

thank you. subbed to your videos (though it would be nice to see a playlist labeled 'instructional'. but your content is engaging)

that word, predict.

now all the crazy moves in BFM and ACM start to make sense. So many tac views are analyzed but that word is never mentioned. Your lead turn is smooth. And achieves what I want to do with a pirouette that I can never make 'violent enough'.

Of course, who would think of telegraphing his intentions to a bogey coming straight at you. but that cost is well worth the result. Unfortunately, the bandit will respond in kind and as you turn left, so will he. And the one circle will be born again. And when I see that, the gentle turn you scribed in your tacview then needs to become tighter.

 

Walk before you run. Learning the basics against a non-maneuvering bandit is the first step. 
 

Yes, the opponent will definitely respond to what you are doing. That is why it is a constant loop. Boyd used Observe, Orient, Decide, Act (OODA). My personal version of that for BFM is Predict, Maneuver, Evaluate and all three are occurring simultaneously at the speed the fight is changing. 
 

As to my videos, they are generally aimed at a specific subject pertinent to my group at the time I made them and not anywhere a full set of BFM. I just happened to have one on pre-merge lead turns. (because it is extremely useful)
 

TBH, if you learn how to do pre-merge lead turns, you are going to win the merge against 90% of your human DCS opponents and get a shot opportunity about 75% of the time. DCS AI is actually better pre-merge than your average DCS player. 
 

This one weird trick will go a long way but once you master it, I can certainly help with what is next. 

Cheers!

Edited March 23, 2023 by =475FG= Dawger

[Trooper117]

Good info here, thanks!

[pgn]

While this is great advice about the long path to expertise, I would second the experience of OP that AI similar dogfighting in this aircraft is particularly difficult. Having begun to learn dogfighting in several modules from the 109 to the Hornet over the last few months, I found the A4 and F5 to be the most difficult for exactly the reasons you describe. In the A4 it is climbing turns and in the F5 usually descending turns, but if you get into the wrong kind of fight the AI is capable of strangling you even on easy mode in these early jet aircraft, very unlike similar fights in the 109 or in 4th gen.

One tip is that they are still susceptible to manoeuvre kills. If the circle goes to the deck and you can turn it a bit vertical, often the AI will crash.

[RustBelt]

The Earlier pre 1:1 thrust to weight ratio supersonic jet fighters and the just at 1:1, is a whole complex bag of worms. You’re dealing with stubby supersonic wings with swept wing drag profiles. Prop Fighters made up for lower power with good meaty wings that could manage maneuvering with less drag at the cost of compressibility issues once you got above around 450kts. 
 

And 4th Gen fighters had advanced systems refined airfoils as well as excess power that allowed them to do things in maneuvering near a prop fighters max speed. (Tomcat money speed is like 350kts) 

Prop fighters were Cutlass, and 4th gen are Rapiers. But earlier jet fighters were stilettos both due to aerodynamics and fuel loads. You have to fly them knowing you have to leave yourself outs to make back up energy, or you need to hit and run.  Think less 109 and more 190. 

[throAU]

I’m no BFM master but this video came with the premium edition of falcon 3.0 back in the day and goes into basic BFM tactics including lead turns, and how lead pursuit is different (and will get you killed if used inappropriately)

 

https://youtu.be/OCFMX5z-ed4

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by throAU

[MRSHADO]

On 3/22/2023 at 10:57 AM, Sarowa said:

The AI cheats. They don't bleed energy the same way you do. As far as I can tell, the AI is primarily tuned to be challenging to 4th-gen fighters that regain energy much more quickly. This poses a big problem for aircraft like the F-5 and MiG-21.

If you want to learn BFM in the F-5, honestly the best place is probably the Enigma Cold War (ECW) multiplayer server.

You're correct - AI cheats - ALOT.
The AI flies good BFM, but it has almost no weaknesses. It would be harder to tell in another jet, but in all modes (rookie - veteran) the aircraft does not bleed energy, has almost no drag, AoA isn't computed the same as the players, and as far as I can tell, will always pull a little harder, rate a little more, or simply negate a bad move by fudging some dynamics elsewhere.

I'm not angry - and not asking for lessons in BFM fundamentals - I just wish ED, developers or others simply acknowledge it. (MiG-21bis AI is the same)

Tacview-20230818-201550-DCS-F-5E QuickStart - Air to Air.zip.acmi

Edited August 19, 2023 by MRSHADO
I can't spell

[Bucic]

8 hours ago, MRSHADO said:

You're correct - AI cheats - ALOT.
The AI flies good BFM, but it has almost no weaknesses. It would be harder to tell in another jet, but in all modes (rookie - veteran) the aircraft does not bleed energy, has almost no drag, AoA isn't computed the same as the players, and as far as I can tell, will always pull a little harder, rate a little more, or simply negate a bad move by fudging some dynamics elsewhere.

I'm not angry - and not asking for lessons in BFM fundamentals - I just wish ED, developers or others simply acknowledge it. (MiG-21bis AI is the same)

Tacview-20230818-201550-DCS-F-5E QuickStart - Air to Air.zip.acmi 628.31 kB · 0 downloads

 

Isn't the recent AI work intended  to address exactly that? Murdock on YouTube is a highly skilled F-5E pilot and he does dogfighting AI trials from time to time. You're missing out if you're an F-5E enthusiast and you're not subscribed yet

Murdok - DCS F-5E Tiger II ... How good is DCS 2.8 AI really? (1) - https://youtube.com/watch?v=iVgT1PNzkno&feature=share

 

[=475FG= Dawger]

I find the AI extremely easy to beat except at ACE level. If you aren't winning against the AI, you don't understand BFM. 

This is F5 versus F5 AI at ACE skill level. It wasn't exactly hard to win.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by =475FG= Dawger

[MRSHADO]

On 8/19/2023 at 8:40 AM, =475FG= Dawger said:

I find the AI extremely easy to beat except at ACE level. If you aren't winning against the AI, you don't understand BFM. 

This is F5 versus F5 AI at ACE skill level. It wasn't exactly hard to win.

 

 

 

I'll be sure to conduct High-Aspect BFM, turn the labels on and shoot AIM-9s. Maybe that will help me understand BFM better.

[=475FG= Dawger]

4 hours ago, MRSHADO said:

I'll be sure to conduct High-Aspect BFM, turn the labels on and shoot AIM-9s. Maybe that will help me understand BFM better.

No labels. Missiles and guns. 
Hope it makes you feel better

 

[=475FG= Dawger]

A vertical fight transition to rolling scissors ending in a gun’s kill. 
 

With Tacview and some notes

 

 

[Noctrach]

On 8/19/2023 at 12:46 PM, Bucic said:

Isn't the recent AI work intended  to address exactly that? Murdock on YouTube is a highly skilled F-5E pilot and he does dogfighting AI trials from time to time. You're missing out if you're an F-5E enthusiast and you're not subscribed yet

Murdok - DCS F-5E Tiger II ... How good is DCS 2.8 AI really? (1) - https://youtube.com/watch?v=iVgT1PNzkno&feature=share

 

If it ever finishes, sure. The "recent" AI updates only made guns-only against the AI (and thus OP's campaign experience) even sillier. At least they're no longer pulling endless vertical loops.

The AI simply has not got the same restraints as the player. Fly against an F-5, MiG-21, F-16, Su-27... it's all the same experience.

• If it has chosen "rate fight" as it's tactic, it will not get out of afterburner and end up rating around at very high speeds (0.9+ mach) while using G to gain angles. As such you can regularly see an AI F-5 pulling 9G. I've seen them go as high as 11. If you so much as scrape them with a bullet, they will pull their own wings off on the next turn. They will not stop doing this even if you slow down and go 1C, so you will get endless snapshot and missile opportunities, but you'll never get on their six as they will simply always have a higher energy state.
• If it has chosen "radius fight" as it's tactic, it will wallow at just above stall speed with perfect nose authority. You will never get "better radius" because the player's flight model does not have the same level of control at those speeds. However, you can just speed up and take the fight vertical for endless high to low guns solutions, because they will never take a proper gunshot anyway (only head-on for some reason) and will not have the energy to climb with you.
• If you have managed to get behind them, they will light the afterburner and just start pulling 6-8G jinks out of plane every time you threaten a gunshot (for which they have perfect awareness). Once again, you're getting literally endless opportunities for snapshots and missile solutions once it starts doing this, as the AI will never translate a jink into a defensive break or similar way to force an overshoot. It will just keep plowing on at 450 knots or more.

They are not flying anything close to proper BFM, they're just using perfect awareness and unrealistic flight models. Most fights will end with a relatively high aspect guns snapshot kill, or if you carry missiles... by a nice rear aspect shot after the 3rd turn. You can beat even Ace level 4th gens in an F-5 while never coming out of MIL. Sooner or later it will fly into your gunsights, run out of fuel... or into the ground.

It's simultaneously incredibly easy to beat them, and really really frustrating.

If you want to learn about the handling characteristics of your aircraft and get really good at snapshots, use the AI. If you want to practice proper BFM basics, start running butterfly sets with another player.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Noctrach

[Bucic]

@Noctrach Thanks for the write-up. What are "butterfly sets"?

[Noctrach]

1 hour ago, Bucic said:

@Noctrach Thanks for the write-up. What are "butterfly sets"?

This one has a great example. The Ops Centre is amazing for BFM fundamentals in general