DmitriKozlowsky Posted March 26, 2023 Posted March 26, 2023 I beleived that waypoint offsets are used as tactical tool for weapon release and navigation corrections due to weather. Like phaselines in ground combat. But my understanding came up short. So I humble myself and ask ; What is , officially, a waypoint offset. Why does it exist, and why do we use it?
Hoirtel Posted March 26, 2023 Posted March 26, 2023 Common navigation point for flight. Unique aim/target/IP/whatever for aircraft.
Recluse Posted March 28, 2023 Posted March 28, 2023 Also commonly used for BULLSEYE reference navigation. If you have a WP on the BULLSEYE, and you get a call about something a certain Range and Bearing from BULLSEYE you can create a WP Offset to quickly navigate to that position.
LastRifleRound Posted April 3, 2023 Posted April 3, 2023 Depends on the era you're talking about how it's most commonly used. You'll get a LOT of incorrect responses to this question. Waypoint offsets were originally an idea from the cold war era, when low level ingress under SAM cover was expected. This means the target may not be visible until the last moments of the attack, or in the case of a loft attack, maybe not at all. Also, the target itself may be low-vis. By placing an offset a known distance and bearing from the target, you can correct your navigational drift and height-over-target (or HOT) just before or on ingress by referencing the offset. VIP bombing in the F16, computer IP in the F14, and IP mode in the Mirage 2000C all use this same concept for the same reason. The procedure on a loft cold war style, would be the offset would be designated via flyover with the WOP button, the pilot can choose to accept the altitude correction, or both the position AND the altitude correction. You would then fly your ASL and use the loft cues to bomb the target. It's possible you never actually see the target. Models with AG radars can use offsets to correct navigational errors using a highly radar visible object a known distance and bearing from a target without having to see the target itself on radar. These procedures are actually outlined in the Harrier's manual (yes, the modern version seen in DCS) itself. I would cite the pages but I don't know if that would get me in trouble. They're in there, though. In the DCS of PGM everything, GPS everywhere and always perfect coordinates for targets, this sort of approach doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Offsets can be put on any waypoint and they could be a known IP for a CAS call, ideal ingress lines, or just reference marks to confirm you're in the right neighborhood. In DCS, they're really just kind of a convenience tool with no specific purpose. People will use them for tricks like JDAM TOO'ing or some such, but that wasn't their original intended use, and it kind of muddy's the water for a question of "what was their tactical advantage". I really wish DCS focused on the older less modern eras there was better information for before going super modern with the Hornet. It's lead to a lot of inaccurate information about these holdovers from previous versions of these aircraft. Often the modeling of the modern systems is wishful thinking anyway. The original mission statement for the Black Shark and A10 was only aircraft that could be near 100% accurately modeled in systems. That purpose has drifted significantly IMHO. TL:DR; waypoint offsets are used to refine a waypoint's position using something easier to see than what's expected to be seen (or can be seen) at the waypoint itself. 2
buur Posted April 3, 2023 Posted April 3, 2023 An offset make sense if you use the waypoints not "as point on your way" but as reference points. It comes from the early days of navigation without GPS. For example: You have a mountain as waypoint/reference point and your flight plan is to fly toward the mountain and make a turn 5 miles before reaching the mountain. In visual flying this is easy to do and the offset give you the same opportunity for your navigation system. Why should you work with waypoints as reference points? It gives you a better situational awareness if you place the points over important places of the map. Also it is easier if you fly together with other flights which have a different route than you. If you have a waypoint called BIGHILL and you send a message over radio that enemies are north of it, all flights know easily where it is.
jubuttib Posted April 12, 2023 Posted April 12, 2023 Not sure if related/the same thing, but at least one video (from RedKite, I think?) mentioned off-axis aimpoints being used IRL with targeting pods because often the target you might want to hit isn't high contrast enough for a solid, reliable lock, so you'd lock up something nearby that is higher contrast, and then offset from that to the actual target. Hence them not being that useful in DCS, since we kinda either don't have that problem, or can't use that as a workaround. Can anyone shed some light on whether this is true or not?
LastRifleRound Posted April 12, 2023 Posted April 12, 2023 On 4/3/2023 at 5:17 AM, buur said: An offset make sense if you use the waypoints not "as point on your way" but as reference points. It comes from the early days of navigation without GPS. For example: You have a mountain as waypoint/reference point and your flight plan is to fly toward the mountain and make a turn 5 miles before reaching the mountain. In visual flying this is easy to do and the offset give you the same opportunity for your navigation system. Why should you work with waypoints as reference points? It gives you a better situational awareness if you place the points over important places of the map. Also it is easier if you fly together with other flights which have a different route than you. If you have a waypoint called BIGHILL and you send a message over radio that enemies are north of it, all flights know easily where it is. The recent F15E video by Natso for RAZBAM (who was an F15E WSO) demonstrating HRM shows a good example of this, though the logic you have is backwards from what he does. The waypoints are the intended flight path, with the offsets being prominent features along the way not found on the flight path, as well as around the target area OP, if you want to understand offsets I can't recommend this video highly enough. https://youtu.be/ycthNP-FLfI
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