reported 27R/27ER go permanently dumb if STT is maintained but briefly lost during notch.

[FusRoPotato]

Quote

Weapons. R-27R/ER and R-33 missile seekers are synchronized with fighter radar. If target tracking fails, synchronization is lost and lock recovery becomes impossible.

Documentation? No radar from that era is going to change frequency or phase while continuing to emit its STT unless it has TWS2 capabilities. Unless the radar falls completely out of STT, the missile should recover. It's a major part of why EORL exists. Please elaborate how STT changes phase or frequency mid lock.

If the track blips for even just a blink of the eye, the R-27 goes dumb now. There should be no desync when STT is still on.

Also, the recent changes don't appear to apply to AI launched missiles.

Edited April 19, 2023 by FusRoPotato

[GGTharos]

Missiles from earlier than the R-27 were already deconflicted in channels, and it was necessary to do in order to guide more than one missile to the same target either from the same aircraft or multiple aircraft.  There are very clear sources for how that is done for the R-27 (you're welcome to search for them in the Russian forums, I'm sure there are also some posts in the English section about it as well), and it has nothing to do with TWS.  The very mechanism of this guidance signal injection is also how the RWR can know the difference between STT and 'guiding'.

The same applies to sparrows, and pretty much any early 70's and later SARH.

If the STT track is completely lost (excausted mem mode etc), the radar will move on to using the next missile guidance channel and the missile in flight is lost.

If the STT track is not lost (mem mode operational, lock recovered) and the missile fails to continue guiding in a situation where it should be able to reacquire then that is a bug.

Edited April 18, 2023 by GGTharos

[FusRoPotato]

8 hours ago, GGTharos said:

If the STT track is not lost (mem mode operational, lock recovered) and the missile fails to continue guiding in a situation where it should be able to reacquire then that is a bug.

 

Yes, this is what is experienced and what I think sounds like a bug, however, the patch notes suggest otherwise:

"If target tracking fails, synchronization is lost"

The problem is that when a lock is maintained, but tracking is briefly lost before the lock is lost, but then reacquired, the missile guidance does not recover. This can happen a lot when maintaining a lock with the assistance of EO, but it is now resulting in a lot of trashed missiles. 

It would have made more sense that if a lock is completely lost, tracking fails.

Edited April 18, 2023 by FusRoPotato

[Ironhand]

3 hours ago, FusRoPotato said:

...This can happen a lot when maintaining a lock with the assistance of EO, but it is now resulting in a lot of trashed missiles...

If EOS is doing the tracking instead of the radar, then the radar has lost the lock. At that point, EOS is simply pointing the radar toward the intended unlocked target.

[FusRoPotato]

2 hours ago, Ironhand said:

If EOS is doing the tracking instead of the radar, then the radar has lost the lock. At that point, EOS is simply pointing the radar toward the intended unlocked target.

No, it has lost the track. STT is still active.

It should still be transmitting continuously on the same frequency and phase. That's how it recovers a track.

If what you are saying were true, these would have always been dumbfire missiles throughout history because momentary track loss is common.

Edited April 19, 2023 by FusRoPotato

[GGTharos]

Yep I agree, there is missing simulation for lock recovery here, so if the missile fails to guide even though the radar is still trying to recover the same track, that's a bug (assuming, of course, that the missile is still in a physical position to recover the lock as well)

 

I would suggest someone make a track, so that @BIGNEWY and @NineLine can report this.

^^^^ Guys, please chime in if the logic for what's happening isn't clearly described.   This is a valid issue and should be pursued.

Edited April 19, 2023 by GGTharos

[BIGNEWY]

Hello all,

missile should reacquire the target, unless STT has been manually switched or MEM has run out. 

We do have a report open for tweaking, if you have short track replay examples on Caucasus feel free to add them so we can check them. 

thank you

[Ironhand]

Had a few minutes this morning (SP) and could not reproduce. Is this, perhaps, an MP issue?

@FusRoPotato, are you saying that the missile stops guiding either before or during the MEM period (flashing launch authorization cue)?

[FusRoPotato]

9 hours ago, Ironhand said:

Had a few minutes this morning (SP) and could not reproduce. Is this, perhaps, an MP issue?

@FusRoPotato, are you saying that the missile stops guiding either before or during the MEM period (flashing launch authorization cue)?

Affirmative. Will work on getting some tracks together, just need some time because I have a lot of work for the next few days.

Edited April 20, 2023 by FusRoPotato

[okopanja]

7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hello all,

missile should reacquire the target, unless STT has been manually switched or MEM has run out. 

We do have a report open for tweaking, if you have short track replay examples on Caucasus feel free to add them so we can check them. 

thank you

I think this can be easily reproduced with Instant action: Su-27 Bomber Intercept.

1. Lock the right F-5
2. Wait for LA
3. Launch R-27ER
4. F-5 will continue flying toward, until at certain point it starts defending to his left side (our right)
5. Radar should not loose lock, but there is distinct moment when missile goes limp, and simple stops tracking

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by okopanja

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

The behaviour is correct as is right now, it will reacquire if lock is reestablished within MEM time.

Merely passing through the beam will not instantly trash the missile.

This is in line with what is known from the MiG-29 manuals and so on.

[FusRoPotato]

I have seen a number of instances now since I first reported this where the missile does reacquire as expected, so whatever I saw beforehand had to have been a loss of track due to some other reason, or this system does not work properly in every case. 

[okopanja]

On 4/24/2023 at 3:56 PM, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

The behaviour is correct as is right now, it will reacquire if lock is reestablished within MEM time.

Merely passing through the beam will not instantly trash the missile.

This is in line with what is known from the MiG-29 manuals and so on.

Can you please try Su-27 instant mission: bomber intercept. Try hitting the F-5 from longer range. I am not sure if it exceeded the MEM time long enough...