AAR done by AI pilot - while player is WSO

[shagrat]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Jackjack171:

I saw that. My interpretation of hand holding may be different. I was handheld my first year in the Navy, which just meant trained and always with a mentor. Hand holding isn't the same as "done for me." I did it all under guidance and had to learn. There's a big difference! Even if I'm wrong, I still stand on precedent. The more cheats given, the more expected! The next thing to happen will be sharks with laser beams on their foreheads...a little humor of course! If we were talking about an AI WSO giving you coaching from the backseat, kind of like Jester (without the banter), that would be great and more effective. ED or RB can do whatever they like as far as this goes, but I do recall another post where this idea of easy tanking was squashed. I'd hate for this beloved hobby to turn into the previously mentioned platforms. 

Thanks

 

The thing, as I mentioned before, is, this there's a reason ED implemented things like air-start, or hot from parking/runway. They intentionally created scripted auto-start and auto-shutdown procedure and they deliberately added things like rudder-assist and Take-Off- assist.

They have decided to allow for labels (luckily adjusted over a long struggle to a more flexible system, other than the awful red/blue dot with textblock to a less intrusive "spotting" helper) and even gamey "arcade options" for the few who want a "previously mentioned platform", though I never saw any of the arcade stuff on a MP server...

These are all intentional as part of the "suit the user and his particular level of experience and training" credo, from the very start of DCS with DCS: Ka-50 Black Shark.

The handholding concept isn't "cheats", but a way to mitigate the real life cues and advantages over an arm-chair simulation. Unlike real pilots in a real aircraft we don't have real comms and can talk with the tanker.

We need to fiddle around with a bunch of keyboard/mouse based F-commands in a situation you really want your hands on throttle and stick.

We don't have a 210° field of view (peripheral vision) and especially not everyone can afford to buy VR just to have at least 3D for better depth perception.

We don't have real world motion/acceleration perception and can't easily afford a full motion platform to compensate for that.

There are even customers out there, that cannot afford a full blown HOTAS and Rudder setup, or people that have disabilities, that would prevent them from flying a real plane in the first place.

This is why ED implemented helpers and options to enable everyone interested in study level aviation to participate.

So while I get the point of competitive PvP may wanting to limit features that could affect competition, I can't understand the hubris of exclusion, based on personal preference, for the greater community playing SP, simple training in MP or PvE in their group.

Similar to other "client/player" based options this wouldn't even affect other players in PvE... and definitely not in Single player!

As for the "you can easily use the 'unlimited fuel' option" that is often brought up. This is actually a "cheat", not a helper, as it eliminates fuel/weight management. I at least hate this option, and don't use it, as it is a bad compromise and is causing mayhem in MP PvE, where you want a flight to have similar fuel consumption and weight at similar times in the mission, for obvious reasons.

As for "turning into something else", it didn't turn into something else with "auto-start" available, nor did I ever see a public server with the "Arcade avionics and flight model" enabled in the last two decades, so I daresay this is a straw man argument. Obviously the reason people pick DCS and stick to it isn't "a better looking -gamey flight arcade- experience.

If AAR training in DCS would allow for override of the f...ing F-key orgy and go through the process without fighting keyboard while struggling with station keeping, if the tanker at least in a training scenario would announce turns and smoothly roll, if the tanker talk to you other than "return pre- and contact" and training missions for AAR wouldn't consist simply of a tanker on a race-track, a list steps to go through and a "gid gud" heads up, as hand holding, it could improve. The naval operations introduced an IFLOLS overlay to help. The tankers Pilot Director Lights as a similar overlay would be a good first step. Visual cues for training station keeping would help hand holding.

And ultimately a way of adjusting the difficulty for AAR (for example by a more relaxed connection to the tanker) that can be individually set until you get comfortable and dial it down over time, similar to take-off assist, isn't a bad idea.

Currently we have a tanker... That's it.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by shagrat

[Wrcknbckr]

On 6/25/2023 at 5:23 PM, shagrat said:

The "general" attitude is basically the same half a dozen people who feel threatened to lose a sense of accomplishment.

It seems a lot of single player and PvE players would actually like something like this.

In my opinion it is ridiculous, as it should be easy to restrict and honestly, we already have similar helpers for Auto StartUp, Auto-rudder and Take-Off assist for the Warbirds. All client side. Unrestricted... not that anyone could even tell, if someone uses them or not.

OP is merely asking to sit and relax as WSO to see the pilot do the AAR. Why bring up the 'helpers' again? That's been an endless discussion already. Helpers are for procedural events (dull switch-flipping, no skill needed and easy to implement by devs) and for hardware limitations. In no way we need 'helpers' to do the flying for you.

[shagrat]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Wrcknbckr:

OP is merely asking to sit and relax as WSO to see the pilot do the AAR. Why bring up the 'helpers' again? That's been an endless discussion already. Helpers are for procedural events (dull switch-flipping, no skill needed and easy to implement by devs) and for hardware limitations. In no way we need 'helpers' to do the flying for you.

What we need is a way to mitigate/adjust the difficulty of AAR in a PC simulation. I currently take even a "let the AI do it for me" solution, but would prefer actual help(!) options.

[Jackjack171]

16 hours ago, sirrah said:

 

 

 

16 hours ago, sirrah said:

I understand your fear of DCS slowly turning into one of these other platforms. Personally, I don't think this will happen just by adding a few more "helpers". DCS will keep being a study level sim and I don't think the community would accept anything less. Adding some (let's say SP only) helpers/cheats, won't change the overall "deepness" of DCS I think.

 

 

 

 

 

Btw: as you can also read in my OP. I love doing AAR myself. I almost mastered it in the Mudhen after just a few sessions. Still I wouldn't mind if others/newcomers had some sort of AAR assist.

 

Just a concern, I wouldn't go that far and call it a fear. But I get your point. I've just been on this rock too long and have seen when things with "good intentions" are added. Before long, they become expected. I like that ED squashed this idea (AAR) however. And I did catch that you like AAR. I do too! This is just healthy discussion. As far as the community accepting it, that can change as well. Maybe the change won't happen today or tomorrow, but eventually...I guess we shall see. Just study the Forums. Some may call me a purist...guilty as charged in some way. My point is and always will be, precedent! I've got no say what happens either way. It's just my 2 cents. 

Thanks

Edited July 9, 2023 by Jackjack171