How to change nose direction in a hover, what is correct way?

[bies]

Hi, when i'm trimmed and in stable hands off hover, how do i change the direction my nose is pointing in confined space?

1) I've tried the easiest - to push one pedal, but at light touch stabilization fights me and when i press a bit harder to overcome stabilization authority it chnges direction to one side correctly, but loses stability in all 3 planes, translating me hundreds meters or slowly rolling helicopter 360°.

2) Hold Force Trim Release, make a maneuver, and release the button? Is that temporarly disable heading hold?

3) Disengage hover (Attidute Hold), make a maneuver and reengage?

I use both stick and pedals with light spring and Instant Trim, very precise 50cm joystick.

What is correct procedure to make that simple maneuver?

Edited May 2, 2023 by bies

[Floyd1212]

With the current behavior of the aircraft and hold modes, what works best for me is option 3.

Disable ATT Hold (you can keep ALT Hold enabled) and control the hover manually, then swing the nose around slowly, then settle at the new heading and re-enable ATT Hold.

You used to be able to coax it around gently with the pedal while keeping ATT Hold enabled, but that technique doesn't seem to work as well anymore.  And for me, pressing and holding FTR is asking to lose control in all axis very quickly.

[placsea]

Also with option 3. I'm not sure if it's just a muscle memory thing being used to the damping of the SCAS or a general skill issue but holding FTR at a hover goes about as well as lighting myself on fire. 

[Floyd1212]

I recorded a short video of my technique. (Gave me an excuse to try out an overhead cam of my physical controls.)

 

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

A SME could tell you the real world correct procedure. But in this sim, I use to do this with ATT and ALT hold modes on -> pedal just a bit then tap FTR, repeat until desired direction. But now I turn off ATT hold, pedal gently to desired direction, then re-engage ATT hold. But it can all go downhill quickly at times, especially under fire or with wind or a full load. I would be happy if they could just copy the Ka50 when it comes to hovering! 

[bies]

Thanks for all answers.

 

11 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

I would be happy if they could just copy the Ka50 when it comes to hovering! 

Surely it is far more complicated than that, plus Ka-50 FM has been created 15 years ago, with limited documantation, limited SME input etc. And what destabilize Apache during this maneuver is tail rotor Ka-50 lacks completely so there is even no analogy between the two.

It's like Attitude Hold can't deal with tail rotor input, or heading hold treshold is too big, or Force Trim Release being held even with stable hover making destabilizing helicopter in all planes to much, or it requires perfect controls replica with magnetic force trim and motion sensation - but the last is not the case with other helicopters. Or i just need more practice.

Overall Apache FM probably require some tuning in this regime - it couldn't be SO hard IRL. People in DCS use no spring 50cm long sticks and still, it requires 100% focus, a lot of time to finish simple maneuver, and slightest mistake = crash or flying all around. But Apache is early in early access so ED probably tune few things. Anyway it's the single situation causing problems to control Apache for me, i prefer to do it without ATT Hold at all.

Thx for answers again, but if someone know how it's done IRL please write that as well.

Edited May 2, 2023 by bies

[Dangerzone]

On 5/2/2023 at 9:31 AM, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

A SME could tell you the real world correct procedure. But in this sim, I use to do this with ATT and ALT hold modes on -> pedal just a bit then tap FTR, repeat until desired direction. But now I turn off ATT hold, pedal gently to desired direction, then re-engage ATT hold. But it can all go downhill quickly at times, especially under fire or with wind or a full load. I would be happy if they could just copy the Ka50 when it comes to hovering! 

I've previously suggested a different approach to force trim in DCS that I think would work with all airframes which is a soft trim option. I think that approach would also help with the AH64 as well in this instance.

The idea is for a "SOFT Trim". When the trim button is pressed, the existing trim variables start to work towards the new trim that has been set at a rate specified by the user. (By default for instance the user could have 2.5 seconds as their default). 

When the user sets a new trim - there is no sudden movements that need to take place, nor do they ever loses momentary control of the helicopter. (At present, unless someone has FFB, we either have the helicopter suddenly change it's input as the new trim is applied and 'lurch' in the direction the trim was made as we have to quickly reset our peripherals back to the center, or otherwise we either lose control (input) between from when we set the trim until we get all our controls back in the center and DCS re-engages our input).

So with the soft trim approach, once it is set - the aircraft doesn't move suddenly, nor lock out controls as it does at the moment- but as the trim is slowly being relocated from the current offset to the new trim offset the pilot naturally will be moving their controls back to center to offset the movement. This would be a natural feeling, and means that the whole process is fully controlled. No sudden trim movements, and no loss of input.

If this was implemented, then with the Apache, it could simply be combined with the existing SAS/Att hold, etc. So effectively the user would depress the trim button which would disengage SAS but leave the existing trim exactly where it was (as it currently happens). They then move their controls to the new position and when satisfied with the position they release the trim button. At this point SAS is re-engaged but unlike the 'return to center lockout' or 'immediate application' the trim offset behind the scenes starts to slowly move towards the new offset meaning that the pilot can slowly move their controls back to the center for the new trim setup.

Additionally - at any time while the new trim is being returned to the center - if the pilot needed urgent input - they just apply it - and it's available as nothing is disabled. 

I got this idea from the VKB Modern Gunfighter. There was an option to set trim on it, with the option for a soft reset. When I tried it, I couldn't believe how natural it felt - and how well I could still control. I just thought to myself - imagine doing this in the reverse direction and having it as a native option in DCS. Twould be trim heaven.

On 5/2/2023 at 11:40 AM, bies said:

It couldn't be SO hard IRL. People in DCS use no spring 50cm long sticks and still, it requires 100% focus, a lot of time to finish simple maneuver, and slightest mistake = crash or flying all around.

The problem being - in real life there is no 'center' of the stick. What happens is if you push the trim - the 'force setting' is released and you can easilly move the cyclic to the new position. When you release the force trim button - the stick doesn't move anywhere - just that force pressure is applied so that location is the 'new center'. 

We can't have this with conventional joysticks. We need to return to the center (unless we're fortunate enough to have force feedback), so yes - IRL it's simpler because there's no trim and return to center - it's just apply force trim. The problem we face with DCS is we're trying to merge real life application with gaming peripherals that operate differently.  I came up with a potential solution I've been dreaming about for a couple of years (per above post) that I've been trying to find a way to do outside of DCS for a while.

[Belphe]

Even with us building more and more advanced and precise controllers for our pits we continue to struggle with flying the Apache as it is seen in real life videos. Yes, those guys are PROs who are practically living in those helicopters. It's their job to be good at flying them while for us it usually is just a hobby. Also, G-forces help them a lot. I don't need to mention that the current FM is WIP either...
However, I believe we need to realise that even if ED models the Apache FM to represent the real aircraft 1:1 (which I suspect they strive to do!) we still won't be able to control it as well as the real pilots (courtesy of the above-mentioned inertia vs us stationary in our chairs, stereoscopic vison vs flat screens (if one is not using VR) and professional trimming systems vs springs, false dampers etc.).

The question that arises is: should the FM be made to be as real as it can be from the technical point of view (and none of us will ever tame it as well as the real-life guys) or should it be "tweaked" to the realities of our home pits (so that we could easily get the aircraft to do what it would normally be able to do but wearing flip-flops ).

Pardon me for expanding a bit around this subject.

[Sandman1330]

The correct, by the book answer is #2. Hold the FTR. It isn't what people want to hear, but if you can't hover for short periods with FTR depressed, you haven't mastered flying the aircraft yet.

Practice hovering with the FTR depressed. Once you master that, everything else will be easier. This is the way.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Sandman1330

[NeedzWD40]

1 hour ago, Sandman1330 said:

Practice hovering with the FTR depressed. Once you master that, everything else will be easier. This is the way.

I actually find it a lot easier to fly without the FMC entirely. The problem comes from trying to adjust to the jump from FMC off > FMC on. On all the other helicopters - Mi-24, Ka-50, Mi-8 - I can easily use FTR depress > maneuver > FTR release. In the Mi-24 I even just left the yaw channel off entirely, until I tried the new pedal depress option. The AH-64 I end up using a hybrid approach of FTR hold at speed, but a mix of bump and press in transitioning or hover. In particular, I notice at speed, the FMC has a tendency to cause rolling and yawing moments, which go away when FTR is held.

[Sandman1330]

3 hours ago, NeedzWD40 said:

I actually find it a lot easier to fly without the FMC entirely. The problem comes from trying to adjust to the jump from FMC off > FMC on. On all the other helicopters - Mi-24, Ka-50, Mi-8 - I can easily use FTR depress > maneuver > FTR release. In the Mi-24 I even just left the yaw channel off entirely, until I tried the new pedal depress option. The AH-64 I end up using a hybrid approach of FTR hold at speed, but a mix of bump and press in transitioning or hover. In particular, I notice at speed, the FMC has a tendency to cause rolling and yawing moments, which go away when FTR is held.

I’m just giving the book answer Do what you’re confortable with!

The issue with bump and press is the SAS channels never have a chance to center, so you can get that “kick” when you tap FTR and the channels move towards center. Press and hold ensures the SAS always starts out centered in the new stick position / attitude.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Sandman1330

[NeedzWD40]

2 hours ago, Sandman1330 said:

The issue with bump and press is the SAS channels never have a chance to center

That's why I try to use the press and hold mechanic as much as possible. As of the most recent change, I only get SAS saturation when rapidly shifting from high to low speeds or vice versa, versus the constant that used to come up (due to the collective channel ghost saturating). It's not unworkable, but I tend to be the only dedicated AH-64 guy in my group and that's kinda sad. However, I do believe a huge chunk of that is hardware based, because so many sticks in use have stiff springs and poor fine motion around the center, which exacerbates the issues.

[Sandman1330]

12 hours ago, NeedzWD40 said:

That's why I try to use the press and hold mechanic as much as possible. As of the most recent change, I only get SAS saturation when rapidly shifting from high to low speeds or vice versa, versus the constant that used to come up (due to the collective channel ghost saturating). It's not unworkable, but I tend to be the only dedicated AH-64 guy in my group and that's kinda sad. However, I do believe a huge chunk of that is hardware based, because so many sticks in use have stiff springs and poor fine motion around the center, which exacerbates the issues.

Yeah, the SAS saturated is one issue. In the other thread about yaw control, a member was complaining that every time he tapped the FTR, the yaw would "kick" on him. This was because the yaw SAS channel was deflected over to maintain heading and not aligned with his pedals. This is what I'm referring to.

It is avoidable if you are still flying the aircraft - moving your pedals to the correct position to maintain heading in the hover. Then SAS isn't going to bump when you tap FTR because it's already centered. If you have the control indicator up to give you the visual cue and ensure you're always aligning controls with the SAS, it won't be an issue for you. Though again, holding FTR and flying the aircraft manually to a stable hover before releasing FTR is the most correct way to do it. This ensures you're setting the SAS up with a nice, trimmed and centered start point.

[macedk]

High skill is required, so sorry to point it out. 
It is all about what YOU  do. 

I for one, is current a 3/10 Apache pilot in dcs :).

Don't post if you have less than 100 hours flight time ?  A bit harsh I know.....

and so on. 

Don't worry, real Apache guys are flying this sim and will call out major errors, maybe listen to them ? 

Imagine you are trying to build a sim and real world pilots are in line to talk about your wok. 

ED is on it, dang I would .

Blind faith.... heck no but some leeway yes :).

 

[bies]

On 5/5/2023 at 10:37 PM, macedk said:

High skill is required, so sorry to point it out. 

Yes, it turned out it was mostly a skill issue - now i don't have much problems controling Apache and maneuvering in hover, sometimes stabilizing hover, with FTR being held, reuires full focus, but its perfectly doable. And ED is also tuning trim, hover, FTR, SAS behaviours so things will change a bit in near future.

Edited May 9, 2023 by bies

[Sandman1330]

7 hours ago, bies said:

Yes, it turned out it was mostly a skill issue - now i don't have much problems controling Apache and maneuvering in hover, sometimes stabilizing hover, with FTR being held, reuires full focus, but its perfectly doable. And ED is also tuning trim, hover, FTR, SAS behaviours so things will change a bit in near future.

 

 

[macedk]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:53 PM, bies said:

Yes, it turned out it was mostly a skill issue - now i don't have much problems controling Apache and maneuvering in hover, sometimes stabilizing hover, with FTR being held, reuires full focus, but its perfectly doable. And ED is also tuning trim, hover, FTR, SAS behaviours so things will change a bit in near future.

 

"And now people want me to able to fight as well?" , phew, up tha hill :).

But welcome to the club and a big shout out to you for posting this reply. 

Also there is never ever any stupid questions . 

Edited May 15, 2023 by macedk
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