MiG-17PF

[Stackup]

15 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

ED has confirmed the Mig-17F has a FF module, no a FC-3 module...

I never said that the MiG-17F was FC3, do not put words in my mouth... 

I'll rephrase, the MiG-17F will be my first full-fidelity Russian-built aircraft and will likely be the only full fidelity Russian aircraft I will buy unless Razbam finishes the MiG-19S because I have no interest in any others and I will not be buying stuff I am not interested in.  I like the MiG-17F because it fixed a lot of the problems the MiG-15 had and is equipped with an early afterburner as well as the part it played in the various wars it was used in.  I've also had the privilige of witnessing a 3-ship formation flight of MiG-17F's at sunset after a performance by Randy Ball in his own MiG-17F who was joined by the other two for the formation and that was a really cool experience and made me want to fly one in DCS.

15 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

The 3rd parties has making modules with the more available info, if you dont like them, ok but we dont go to crush a module, or brame to a ED and/or 3rd party with not have making a "expecific version / year". By now, that planned / released version has useful to use on the Vietnam scenery, include if not math with the scenery.

Dude, seriously??  Please check your reading comprehension, I know English isn't your first language and can be difficult to learn from what I've heard, but that is not at all what I'm doing here in any way shape or form.  I'm not crushing any module or blaming anyone for making the module they wanted to make!  I get that these are all passion projects majority run by small teams that only have access to certain information, we won't have every variant of every aircraft ever,  and so on and so forth.  Seriously...

All I was saying was that if you are going to point out aircraft for being the incorrect versions for a specific war, you should point out all of the aircraft that are incorrect versions for that specific war.  That's it.  Nothing more, nothing against you personally or anyone else, nothing like that at all.  If you list aircraft and point out that some are incorrect models for the Vietnam War, you should point out all the ones that are incorrect for the Vietnam War, because otherwise some people will think that the ones you didn't point out are correct when they aren't.

Edit:  For the record, I fully intend to use all the previously mentioned aircraft to simulate Vietnam as much as possible in DCS.  Even the AI that aren't the correct versions such as the KC-135R and B-52H, both of which I have made skins for to create approximations of KC-135A's and B-52D's and G's.  The Forrestal is a later refit than Vietnam.  Still using it.  Supercarrier definitely doesn't fit. Still using it because no other carrier has animated deck crew.  No correct escort ships.  I use what is already in game or find some mods.  And so on.  We use what we have because that's all we've got, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to know they are not historically correct.

Edited May 22 by Stackup

[Mig Fulcrum]

23 ore fa, Stackup ha scritto:

If you're gonna call out the F-5E, MiG-21bis, and MiG-19P for being the wrong versions... 

The A-6E, F-4E, A-7E, F-104G, UH-1H, and the Early F-14A are all the wrong versions for Vietnam too. All of these aircraft as released/planned are coming with post Vietnam updates, some being decades later.  The A-6E never served in Vietnam even though it had entered service towards the end(stayed stateside to avoid the technology getting into the wrong hands iirc), with the A and B being the only A-6's flying combat in Vietnam.  We are receiving one from the 80s/90s to match the F-14 and given the presence of the TRAM turret in every single screenshot of the A-6 to date and HB saying if they can do the latest version (90s SWIP) they will.  The F-4E is coming with post 1974 upgrades including the newer digital RWR to replace the analog strobe system it had during Vietnam among other things.  The A-7E will be contemporary to Desert Storm despite debuting during the Vietnam War and will have the updates that come with being from the late 80s early 90s.  The F-104G is another wrong version, we need the F-104C for Vietnam.  The UH-1H did serve at the tail end of Vietnam, but just like everything else mentioned has upgrades from after the war such as extra windows in front of the doors, WSPS, the radar altimeter, and flare pods.  The next F-14A we are supposed to get (-135GR Early) also did not serve in Vietnam as it will still be an 80s Tomcat and not the first cruise F-14s that flew cover for Operation Frequent Wind in 1975.  

Razbam has never made a MiG-17PF and I assume you know that and probably made a typo because of the topic name.  They made the MiG-19P and have a semi-completed external model of an S that has not been talked about recently and all development on Razbam products has been halted anyways so no reason to expect it anytime soon. If it ever comes, it will substitute for the Shenyang J-6 as that is a license built copy of the MiG-19S which was used by the North Vietnamese.

Not to say these all of these aircraft won't be used as half-decent subsitutes given we will likely never get all the contemporary versions (same goes for the WWII era), but if we're gonna call out aircraft for being the wrong version, let's do it right and cover them all.  The only aircraft that fit the Vietnam War exactly are all still in development, those being the A-1H, F-8J, F-100D, and MiG-17F.

Hopefully we hear something new about the MiG-17F from Red Star soon, gonna be my first non FC3 Redfor aircraft.

Finally some wise words, it's the same thing i say for ages!!

[303_Kermit]

On 5/22/2024 at 12:38 AM, Stackup said:

The A-7E will be contemporary to Desert Storm despite debuting during the Vietnam War and will have the updates that come with being from the late 80s early 90s.

Bulls...t. A7E (ok I see my mistake I wrote A-7, but meant A-4) Debut was 1965 North Vietnam. USN and USMC. It used firstly big decks, later on only on small decks. in 1968 A-4E and F was removed from big decks as outdated, and replaced by A-7. At the end of vietnam era A-4 (model E) were used only by USMC. Mainly form SATS ground runways.

F-4E - Our version has modern Avionics, but very early engine. Saying that it's not Vietnam Era is true, but it's also true that F-4E from Vietnam wasn't much better fighter.

F-104G - Improved A2G won't make the difference since payloads may be blocked in editor. A2A basically the same.

A-6E - same story. one may block advanced payloads. Without it it's a little difference.

 

On 5/21/2024 at 12:31 PM, Silver_Dragon said:

Mig-17PF (RAZBAM) no propper versios (require a S) but will match

You mean MiG-19PF ?

Edited May 27 by 303_Kermit

[Silver_Dragon]

7 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

You mean MiG-19PF ?

That has correct.

About Carrier air wings check them...

• A-7E appears on Forrestal on 1971, On Saratoga on 1970, Independence from 71 and Ranger on 1970. On the times of Operation Ivory Coast.
• A-6E (we con no use the TRAM funtionality to make Vietnam missions with "propper versions") appears on Forrestal on 1972, independence from 73, Saratoga on 1979, and Ranger on 1979.
• A-1H appers on Forrestal from 62, Saratoga from 64, Independence from 61, Ranger 64
• A-4E (Mod) on Forrestal from 64, Saratoga from 65, Independence from 65, Ranger on 65

About "light decks", we dont know yet if M3 will convert your Essex carrier to fast jets, but the airwings are:

• A-1H Ticonderoga on 63, Hancock on 63, Bonhomme Richard on 64, Oriskany on 63, Shangri La on 63.
• F-8J Ticonderoga on 69, Hancock on 69, Bonhomme Richard on 69, Oriskany on 69, Shangri La none.
• A-4E (Mod) Ticonderoga on 64, Hancock on 64, Bonhomme Richard on 67, Oriskany on 65, Shangri La none.

Meanwhile, no propper "versions" flyables, of AI, dont go to ED / 3rd parties o comunity, make propper Vietnam missions if map will release on a future.

 

Edited May 26 by Silver_Dragon

[Bremspropeller]

16 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

Bulls...t. A7E Debut was 1965 North Vietnam. USN and USMC. It used firstly big decks, later on only on small decks. in 1968 A-4E and F was removed from big decks as outdated, and replaced by A-7. At the end of vietnam era A-4 (model E) were used only by USMC. Mainly form SATS ground runways.

 

- 1965 was the A-7's first flight. Introduced into fleet service and SEA in 1967 and the A-7E came on the line in 1970.

- No A-7s in the Corps. Ever.

- At the end of the War, the USN flew F models on small-deck carriers and the Corps would start getting their much improved Mikes.

Fun Fact: the A-4F with the TIAS mod was the first version that necessitated the bent probe. TIAS is installed in jets 501 and 505 (pics must have been taken during the '72 cruise IIRC):

null

More Navy Warhorses, pics taken in 1975. Note the Hot Dog antenna on the tail, No.500 has the TIAS bulge:

 

[Stackup]

On 5/26/2024 at 3:05 PM, 303_Kermit said:

Bulls...t. A7E Debut was 1965 North Vietnam. USN and USMC.

Uh, what?  Bremspropeller has already answered this better, A-7E debut in Vietnam was 1970.  We are in fact getting a late A-7E, not the early one from Vietnam as stated by FlyingIron themselves in their Discord FAQ.  You could argue there is little difference, HARM capability being the big one, but the subject as I was responding to it was a list of aircraft claimed to be from the Vietnam War.  We are not getting a Vietnam War A-7E.  Same story with the F-14A.  The first cruise of the F-14A was in Vietnam.  Our current F-14A and the "early" version Heatblur is still making did not fly in Vietnam.  You can use it for that and I will too, but historical facts matter when making a list for a war and then saying some don't fit because they are the wrong version and others do when those others are the wrong version too.

On 5/26/2024 at 3:05 PM, 303_Kermit said:

F-4E - Our version has modern Avionics, but very early engine. Saying that it's not Vietnam Era is true, but it's also true that F-4E from Vietnam wasn't much better fighter.

Where did I say it was a better fighter?  I didn't, I said our version didn't participate in Vietnam which is a fact you also acknowledged.

On 5/26/2024 at 3:05 PM, 303_Kermit said:

F-104G - Improved A2G won't make the difference since payloads may be blocked in editor. A2A basically the same.

The F-104C in Vietnam had a refueling probe, the G does not.  Bigger difference than just payloads.  Again, I was never saying any of these aircraft could/should not be used as subsitutes for variants we don't have(in fact I was saying they should be used as subsitutes and that I would use them as such).  But they are not from the Vietnam War.

On 5/26/2024 at 3:05 PM, 303_Kermit said:

A-6E - same story. one may block advanced payloads. Without it it's a little difference.

I would say the TRAM turret at least is a big difference, especially externally.  But the fact that it is little difference is completely irrelevant because again, the A-6E never served in the Vietnam War!  I'm sorry you don't like historical facts, but they are true whether you like them or not. 

 

Again, none of this means they can't be used to substitute, but from a historical standpoint they are in fact innacurate and whining to me about historical facts won't change that.  I'm really not sure what all the fuss is about, we have all the facts.  We know what aircraft and which versions fought in the Vietnam War as well as the variants we are getting for DCS.  There's no argument to be made here, either the version we are getting in DCS served in the Vietnam War and deserved an unmarked spot on that list or it doesn't and should be noted accordingly.

Here's the corrected list of known DCS modules either released or in development which could be used in a Vietnam War scenario since people seem to forget this started about the historical inaccuracies of a list...

• A-1H (Crosstail Studios)
• *A-6E (Heatblur)
• *A-7E (FlyingIron Simulation)
• *F-4E (Heatblur) (Naval version in the future)
• F-8J (Magnitude 3)
• F-100D (Grinnelli Designs)
• *F-104G (Aerges)
• Mig-17F (Red Star Simulation)
• *UH-1H (ED)
• *F-5E (ED)
• *F-14A (Heatblur)
• *MiG-19P (Razbam)
• MiG-19S (Razbam in the future)
• *MiG-21bis (Magnitude-3)

*Version being developed/present in DCS did not participate in the Vietnam War, but can be used to substitute as necessary in DCS.

There, that wasn't so hard.  9/14 aircraft being historically incorrect is a big difference from the 3/14 that were noted in the original list.  If you're gonna call out 3, there is absolutely no reason to not call out the other 6.  Having set the record straight yet again and provided a corrected list for real world historical accuracy, I'm done.  You can argue about DCS use case with someone else, that wasn't why I entered this conversation, and I've already stated I use everything at my disposal in DCS up to and including mods to attempt some form of Vietnam in DCS.  DCS is a sandbox, use it however you like, I don't care.  A list of aircraft trying to be historically accurate to a specific war, is not a sandbox for people to just say whatever they want in.  It can have correct entries or it can have incorrect entries, and it should not be a travesty to point out incorrect entries, in order to make the list more accurate and to inform those who are less familiar with the subject of the list.

Edited May 27 by Stackup

[303_Kermit]

10 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

- No A-7s in the Corps. Ever.

I see my mistake - I thought about A-4E and wrote A-7E. That's obvious mistake of course, sorry

 

10 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

1965 was the A-7's first flight. Introduced into fleet service and SEA in 1967 and the A-7E came on the line in 1970.

Basically means the same - first flight '65, introducing into service, pilots training '67, enter service over North Vietnam '68
 

 

10 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

- At the end of the War, the USN flew F models on small-deck carriers and the Corps would start getting their much improved Mikes.

In reality it means that only CVW-21 on USS Hancock used A-4F in USN until september 1972. When last small deck with A-4F on board left the yankee station. By that time some pilots combat tour in VA-55 had to be extended, to compensate increased combat lost. 

In every way convincing someone that A-4E is a plane from Desert Storm era rather than Vietnam war, is a pure nonsense. Already in Vietnam some of A-4E suffered from malfunctions of catapult arrestors, and were considered ... tired.
 

 

10 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

At the end of the War, the USN flew F models on small-deck carriers and the Corps would start getting their much improved Mikes.

USMC deployments from carrier decks from Yankee station:
VMA-121 (C,D) MAG-12 (SATS), ended in 1969
VMA-211 A-4E MAG-12 (SATS), up to 30 jan. 1973
VMA-214 MAG-12 ended in apr. 67 (A-4C)
VMA-214 Det N A-4B, CVS-12 (USS Hornet) ended in 1964
[.... there are a lot of it....]
VMA-311 MAG-12 (bien Hoa) (SATS) 30 Jan 1973

longest operating from Carrier decks USMC group was H&MS-15 Det N from CVS-12 (USS Hornet) and they ended up in Mar 66.

Can you please name one USMC group that by the end of Vietnam war operated from carrier deck? I see none in my sources.

23 minutes ago, Stackup said:

Uh, what?  Bremspropeller has already answered this better, A-7E

I thought about A-4E and wrote A-7E. It was late, sorry

Edited May 27 by 303_Kermit

[Bremspropeller]

7 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

Can you please name one USMC group that by the end of Vietnam war operated from carrier deck? I see none in my sources.

That's not what I meant. What I meant was that by the end of the war, the A-4M was coming online and stayed in the Corps through to the early eighies, when it in turn was replaced by the AV-8B.

7 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

Basically means the same - first flight '65, introducing into service, pilots training '67, enter service over North Vietnam '68

Not for the A-7E, though. The earliest Westpac with the A-7E that I can find was in 1970.

[LCO489]

 

Edited June 2 by LCO489
video

[Ramstein]

At the Air Museum in Tillamook Oregon they had a perfect Mig-17 I was checking out in the hanger not long ago. I was told they moved it to another location a couple years back... it is really a great looking plane.. I didn't get to see it fly though... it is frakkin huge...

Edited June 1 by Ramstein

[Ramstein]

In the USAF (1970's to 1980's) we had Phantom tail numbers from 1964 to 1980. The last one was the F-4F, and the F-16 was on the way in to replace the F-4's. In updates and addons were many for each model change. The E probably had most changes. The F was like a finishing touch on the last hurrah for the USAF version. We had a mix of Phantoms, F-15's F-16's, A-10's, not to mention All of Nato (you name it from the 1950's aircraft to, MAC, TAC, Tankers, AWAC's, Not many Navy, but once in a while some. All Nations in Nato's aircraft ) at my Nato base in Europe with just about everything there, not all together, but constantly in and out. Only thing not in and out were the heavy Bomber like the B52's as the facilities could never handle that aircraft. We had Iceland also send in us aircraft. We also handled the Middle East missions. I did one tour with SAC, Before Tac.

We also had Army, including Aircraft, Helo's, Tanks, Sam's, and the list goes on and on.

Once a year we had some WWII birds perform.

Base was Always exercising, constantly. Same with SCA, was always on drills.