DCS with a Pimax Crystal OMG

[mac22]

just setting up my crystal for DCS and just wondering what programs I need (is it the same as MSFS - x2 XR tools) or something else - and when in the main menu how can you switch across to VR?

[Hotdognz]

9 hours ago, mac22 said:

just setting up my crystal for DCS and just wondering what programs I need (is it the same as MSFS - x2 XR tools) or something else - and when in the main menu how can you switch across to VR?

DCS goes straight to VR its not as modern as MSFS and being able to switch in and out with a button press.

At a mni you need the Crystal software and PimaxXR Control  Panel
https://github.com/mbucchia/Pimax-OpenXR/releases

 

[mac22]

1 hour ago, Hotdognz said:

DCS goes straight to VR its not as modern as MSFS and being able to switch in and out with a button press.

At a mni you need the Crystal software and PimaxXR Control  Panel
https://github.com/mbucchia/Pimax-OpenXR/releases

 

Thanks for the reply

1)when u say goes straight to VR assume u mean when u check the VR box in the far right VR menu it restarts the sim in VR?

2)if yes that’s exactly what I did - I had Pimax VR running open VR and also the main pimax software all running and it just restarted the game back into 2d even though the  VR box was ticked?

3)any idea what might be wrong or if I am missing some other software (heard of some other software called composite (not sure of exact name)) or do I just need the same apps I use for  MSFS ?(currently not running steamvr or windows mixed reality do I need any of these ones running?)

Edited September 19, 2023 by mac22

[Nedum]

On 7/19/2023 at 1:41 AM, mbucchia said:

I actually released last night! So as soon as Pimax releases their eye tracking to the public, you can jump in:

https://github.com/mbucchia/Quad-Views-Foveated/wiki

 

Thank you so much for that feature.

On 9/19/2023 at 10:24 AM, mac22 said:

Thanks for the reply

1)when u say goes straight to VR assume u mean when u check the VR box in the far right VR menu it restarts the sim in VR?

2)if yes that’s exactly what I did - I had Pimax VR running open VR and also the main pimax software all running and it just restarted the game back into 2d even though the  VR box was ticked?

3)any idea what might be wrong or if I am missing some other software (heard of some other software called composite (not sure of exact name)) or do I just need the same apps I use for  MSFS ?(currently not running steamvr or windows mixed reality do I need any of these ones running?)

 

1. No matter how you start DCS (with the in game option or the shortcut with the VR start parameters), DCS will not be looking if a VR session is already running. If you haven't started the Pimax VR session, you have to quit the DCS session again.

2. There are 2 (3 with foveated rendering) separate tools you should install in order. 1. The OpenXR toolkit 2. Pimax OpenXR 3. https://github.com/mbucchia/Quad-Views-Foveated/wiki

The OpenXR toolkit gives you the opportunity to do config some of your ingame settings (sharpening, upscaling, etc.) to get a better PQ and a better performance.

Quad-Views-Foveated gives your DFR (an eye tracking feature, to get more performance too).

If you follow the link, mbucchia will show you in which order you have to install which tool and why. If you can read, and you do read, it's a no-brainer.

hf

[mac22]

5 hours ago, Nedum said:

Thank you so much for that feature.

1. No matter how you start DCS (with the in game option or the shortcut with the VR start parameters), DCS will not be looking if a VR session is already running. If you haven't started the Pimax VR session, you have to quit the DCS session again.

2. There are 2 (3 with foveated rendering) separate tools you should install in order. 1. The OpenXR toolkit 2. Pimax OpenXR 3. https://github.com/mbucchia/Quad-Views-Foveated/wiki

The OpenXR toolkit gives you the opportunity to do config some of your ingame settings (sharpening, upscaling, etc.) to get a better PQ and a better performance.

Quad-Views-Foveated gives your DFR (an eye tracking feature, to get more performance too).

If you follow the link, mbucchia will show you in which order you have to install which tool and why. If you can read, and you do read, it's a no-brainer.

hf

thanks got it working!

couple more question 

1)I know you have to reset all the options in the openXR (ctrlf2) screen to default - once its all running should I drop the resolution in the openXR options to 3500x (from the 4000x) and also is it ok to enable something like FSR sharpening when using it? - also in the openxr settings is there any other way to navigate it except with the f keys?

2)finally noob question - have a new few devices connected (virpil stick throttle and some rudder) -  spent a bit of time assigning the devices to the right axis and then saved everything to a .lua file however the next time I played the bindings seem to have mostly disappeared and when I try and load the profile not everything seems to be restored - just wondering what I might be doing wrong if you can point me to a good setup guide?

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by mac22

[jaapgrolleman]

With the help of Mbucchia & Omni, we wrote a more detailed guide about using Quads with the Crystal:

https://pimax.com/quad-views-foveated-rendering-for-pimax-crystal/

[Dentedend10]

So is this headset really omg?

I mean clarity is important, but what about the distortions? Are the controllers as bad as some made it sound? And so still no motion smoothening (ASW equivalent)?

aero dropped the price, but the lack of inside out tracking and controllers is a no no for me

[Peedee]

1 hour ago, Dentedend10 said:

So is this headset really omg?

I mean clarity is important, but what about the distortions? Are the controllers as bad as some made it sound? And so still no motion smoothening (ASW equivalent)?

aero dropped the price, but the lack of inside out tracking and controllers is a no no for me

Yes. it is really OMG! In my house now I have one HP Reverb G2, one Reverb (G1), one Quest 2, one Pimax 8KX, two Pico 4. And earlier I have had HTC Vive and Vive Pro. Pimax Crystal is the first one I got where I was thinking OMG when I used it the first times - and I still say (or think) OMG when using it. I've been into VR since 2017.

What distortions??  I think one of problems with perhaps some of the Youtube influencers reviews is that quite a number of them got the headset pretty early. Even before the final lenses  and software even were ready. I know they used plastic lenses for a while in them. Anyway, distortions isn't anything I would worry about now.

One thing is the clarity of the picture. But the colors and contrast of the panels! The local dimming! I don't think people talk about these things enough. Also - the sound solution is very good. I'd even say it is better the G2. And the inside out tracking works flawlessly for simming and car games. I have not done any other types of games on it yet. I sit down in my car og aircraft cockpit and it is perfect for that.

As for the controllers? I think I have them somewhere around here. Not sure why anyone would use them in DCS. They would probably work well. They are pretty standard, nothing wrong about them, and nothing execeptional either. Just works. 

Is everything perfect? Nope, and my 50.000 euros home cinema setup isn't either. I can nitpick all day long in that room  (well, not really , but I'm sure I could find something), and probably could with the Crystal too. There is always something...

Never tried the Varjo Aero. I considered purchasing one now that the prices has come down, since I already got the basestations and controllers (got those for my Pimax 8Kx). But - not sure what that would have to offer making it worth it. The panels are not as good according to those who have both, especially for night time flying and so on. And the FOV isn't either, especially the vertical FOV. And no built in sound solution. But it is supposed to be more comfortable wearing it, and also no batteries is important. I have seen videos of the vertical FOV and that put me off. I suppose I could get used to it. But... the vertical FOV on the Crystal is amazing. And the horisontal is good, way better than Quest 2 and Reverb G2, somewhat better than Pico 4. (But nowhere near my 8KX of course). So.. being more comfortable would be important. But I have a feeling Aeoro will announce an upgrade model of the Aeoro "soon" (meaning the next 6 months) and I can wait and see. 

Ok, just some random and not so random thought one Thursday morning here. In short - for simming - yeah, the Crystal is OMG. Even more so for iRacing.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Peedee

[Peedee]

6 hours ago, jaapgrolleman said:

With the help of Mbucchia & Omni, we wrote a more detailed guide about using Quads with the Crystal:

https://pimax.com/quad-views-foveated-rendering-for-pimax-crystal/

Thanks, that is a good guide with pictures and all I posted a copy of your link in the pinned thread about Quad view.

But in you setup picture of Tallymouse companion app, only 4% in the peripheral resolution - that seemed low! But I have to check it out

[mac22]

10 hours ago, jaapgrolleman said:

With the help of Mbucchia & Omni, we wrote a more detailed guide about using Quads with the Crystal:

https://pimax.com/quad-views-foveated-rendering-for-pimax-crystal/

Thanks for the guide very helpful!

1)was unaware of the tally mouse companion app but will give it a try - assume this just lets u tweak the quad view settings - also are your preferred setting much difference from the stock settings?

2)for quad view setup i realise u need to restore all the open XR in game menu settings to default - is the recommendation that they are kept as default once it’s all

setup - or are u able to lower the resolution from 4000x to 3000x  for example or add in some sharpening and it will still work correctly?

 

 

 

 

[Peedee]

26 minutes ago, mac22 said:

Thanks for the guide very helpful!

1)was unaware of the tally mouse companion app but will give it a try - assume this just lets u tweak the quad view settings - also are your preferred setting much difference from the stock settings?

2)for quad view setup i realise u need to restore all the open XR in game menu settings to default - is the recommendation that they are kept as default once it’s all

setup - or are u able to lower the resolution from 4000x to 3000x  for example or add in some sharpening and it will still work correctly?

 

 

 

 

Not much you need to to in OpenXR Toolkit if you got Quadviews working. Quadviews in itself adds 70% sharpening as default, so don't do any additional in OpenXR Toolkit. But in the OpenXR Toolkit System menu, you can use Override Resolution and set a lower resolution than what your Pimax Play gave you as starting point. I did that. Pimax Play set to Normal(or 1 I think) on thePimax Play Resolution panel gives about 4309x5100 or something. I lowered that with OpenXR toolkit to about 3800x4400 or something like that. 

So in OpenXR Toolkit don't use FSR/NIS scaling or sharpening, and don't use anything from Foveated rendering in there either. That is now handled by Quadviews. 

Mind you, I did not change anything withQuadviews with Tallymouse companion app. 

[mac22]

6 hours ago, Peedee said:

Not much you need to to in OpenXR Toolkit if you got Quadviews working. Quadviews in itself adds 70% sharpening as default, so don't do any additional in OpenXR Toolkit. But in the OpenXR Toolkit System menu, you can use Override Resolution and set a lower resolution than what your Pimax Play gave you as starting point. I did that. Pimax Play set to Normal(or 1 I think) on thePimax Play Resolution panel gives about 4309x5100 or something. I lowered that with OpenXR toolkit to about 3800x4400 or something like that. 

So in OpenXR Toolkit don't use FSR/NIS scaling or sharpening, and don't use anything from Foveated rendering in there either. That is now handled by Quadviews. 

Mind you, I did not change anything withQuadviews with Tallymouse companion app. 

thanks will try these settings.....

also unrelated questions (and no idea if you play MSFS) - the FR is done in a different way on MSFS although the apps used are the same - just wondering if all the apps remember your settings for each sim or do you need to set everything up again as you switch between sims? - also does have the quad app installed mess up the FR  for MSFS?

[Peedee]

1 hour ago, mac22 said:

thanks will try these settings.....

also unrelated questions (and no idea if you play MSFS) - the FR is done in a different way on MSFS although the apps used are the same - just wondering if all the apps remember your settings for each sim or do you need to set everything up again as you switch between sims? - also does have the quad app installed mess up the FR  for MSFS?

Before playing MSFS you can uncheck the box for Use Quadview in the PimaxXr app, and leave the box for use Eye Tracking checked. 
But it seems like OpenXr toolkit itself remember different settings for different games correctly.

[mac22]

2 hours ago, Peedee said:

Before playing MSFS you can uncheck the box for Use Quadview in the PimaxXr app, and leave the box for use Eye Tracking checked. 
But it seems like OpenXr toolkit itself remember different settings for different games correctly.

thanks for the advice will give it a try after I have tweaked DCS - I am told the best way to set FR up in MSFS is simply to select FR in the openXR in game settings and then just select a preset in the same menu - is this your experience or is there a better way?

[TAIPAN_]

On 9/21/2023 at 5:54 AM, mac22 said:

 

2)finally noob question - have a new few devices connected (virpil stick throttle and some rudder) -  spent a bit of time assigning the devices to the right axis and then saved everything to a .lua file however the next time I played the bindings seem to have mostly disappeared and when I try and load the profile not everything seems to be restored - just wondering what I might be doing wrong if you can point me to a good setup guide?

 

Losing control inputs can happen because Virpil devices often get re-assigned new Windows device IDs when changing USB ports. Might be something in their firmware, because I have VKB, Virpil, Total Controls and Winwing which are all fine when changing ports EXCEPT for my Virpil throttle.

Are your pedals also Virpil?

The fix is fairly easy though but you have to do it for every aircraft you've mapped (and every other game/sim).

In DCS controls menu, at the top of each device use the dropdown to "load profile". Do that for every plane and it's restored.

The alternative is to map just one button so it creates a new GUID file in the Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Config\Input folder. Once you see the new file you know the new GUID, so go and rename your old Virpil device to the old GUID.

It's a real pain when you have alot of modules and other sims.

For this reason I try not to switch my Virpil throttle between ports.

2 hours ago, Peedee said:

Before playing MSFS you can uncheck the box for Use Quadview in the PimaxXr app, and leave the box for use Eye Tracking checked. 
But it seems like OpenXr toolkit itself remember different settings for different games correctly.

You can leave Quadviews enabled all the time, only two games support it so it won't hurt other apps they just ignore it.

The other options "prefer framerate.." and "lock to half framerate" will affect all apps though and need to be changed any time you want different.

Edited September 21, 2023 by TAIPAN_

[mac22]

18 hours ago, TAIPAN_ said:

Losing control inputs can happen because Virpil devices often get re-assigned new Windows device IDs when changing USB ports. Might be something in their firmware, because I have VKB, Virpil, Total Controls and Winwing which are all fine when changing ports EXCEPT for my Virpil throttle.

Are your pedals also Virpil?

The fix is fairly easy though but you have to do it for every aircraft you've mapped (and every other game/sim).

In DCS controls menu, at the top of each device use the dropdown to "load profile". Do that for every plane and it's restored.

The alternative is to map just one button so it creates a new GUID file in the Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Config\Input folder. Once you see the new file you know the new GUID, so go and rename your old Virpil device to the old GUID.

It's a real pain when you have alot of modules and other sims.

For this reason I try not to switch my Virpil throttle between ports.

You can leave Quadviews enabled all the time, only two games support it so it won't hurt other apps they just ignore it.

The other options "prefer framerate.." and "lock to half framerate" will affect all apps though and need to be changed any time you want different.

 

Thanks for the reply:

1)so for the control question I am actually using a Virpil stick (also have a few other devices connected via a hub!) so when u say select  “load profile” at the top do u mean I then need to select a saved profile to load or by clicking the button it loads up what was bound on that controller previously?

2)so in terms of trying FR with MSFS what’s the best way - have been told all I need to do is in the openXR in game menu I need to enable FR + preset then select a preset from below and it should work or is there a better way?(will leaving the quad view option selected in openXR app if it doesn’t interfere)

[TAIPAN_]

13 hours ago, mac22 said:

Thanks for the reply:

1)so for the control question I am actually using a Virpil stick (also have a few other devices connected via a hub!) so when u say select  “load profile” at the top do u mean I then need to select a saved profile to load or by clicking the button it loads up what was bound on that controller previously?

2)so in terms of trying FR with MSFS what’s the best way - have been told all I need to do is in the openXR in game menu I need to enable FR + preset then select a preset from below and it should work or is there a better way?(will leaving the quad view option selected in openXR app if it doesn’t interfere)

1) yes when you select load profile and browse the folder structure, you should be able to find your old bindings saved in Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Config\Input folder. 

eg my throttle bindings are saved in the file "VPC Throttle MT-50CM3 {3829FD80-4545-11ee-800B-444553540000}.diff.lua"

If there's two files named after your device, one will be the old bindings that you had an the newer one could be based on the new ID after changing USB assignments. 

Usually the one with larger file size is the one you want, in any case take a backup and can try again if you pick the wrong one. 

2) Yes MSFS ensure you have eye tracking turned on in Pimax software, and in PimaxXR companion app. Then running MSFS with OpenXR toolkit (ctrl F2 to open) enable it and the preset eg "balanced". Quadviews setting won't even be looked at by the toolkit or MSFS since it only works in DCS and Pavlov, it won't hurt anything either. Mine is on always.

[mac22]

1 hour ago, TAIPAN_ said:

1) yes when you select load profile and browse the folder structure, you should be able to find your old bindings saved in Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Config\Input folder. 

eg my throttle bindings are saved in the file "VPC Throttle MT-50CM3 {3829FD80-4545-11ee-800B-444553540000}.diff.lua"

If there's two files named after your device, one will be the old bindings that you had an the newer one could be based on the new ID after changing USB assignments. 

Usually the one with larger file size is the one you want, in any case take a backup and can try again if you pick the wrong one. 

2) Yes MSFS ensure you have eye tracking turned on in Pimax software, and in PimaxXR companion app. Then running MSFS with OpenXR toolkit (ctrl F2 to open) enable it and the preset eg "balanced". Quadviews setting won't even be looked at by the toolkit or MSFS since it only works in DCS and Pavlov, it won't hurt anything either. Mine is on always.

Thanks

I managed to get it all working - only issue is on MSFS with a quality wide preset I am maybe getting 4 or 5 fps improvement (DCS gave me around 20!)

[TAIPAN_]

21 hours ago, mac22 said:

Thanks

I managed to get it all working - only issue is on MSFS with a quality wide preset I am maybe getting 4 or 5 fps improvement (DCS gave me around 20!)

Yeah QuadViews is some advanced tech, that we are thankful DCS is willing to use. 

MSFS doesn't use it. I use balanced for MSFS but still it's much smaller benefit than DCS. The fact that they've announced MSFS 2024 instead of fixing/finishing 2020 first is a bit of a bummer but at least we have DCS willing to commit to the long term.

[bomber]

Hello.  Is there any benefit to running open xr as well as Quadviews and Pimax xr (and companion)

Pimax Crystal.

13700k

4090

64gb ram.

[TAIPAN_]

23 hours ago, bomber said:

Hello.  Is there any benefit to running open xr as well as Quadviews and Pimax xr (and companion)

Pimax Crystal.

13700k

4090

64gb ram.

It's mandatory actually. 

To use PimaxXR and QuadViews you must launch DCS in OpenXR mode. All you need to do is run the ooenbeta multithreaded exe and it runs in OpenXR mode automatically. 

[dsc106]

For those with the Crystal, how are you doing this in DCS with decent frames? I have a 4090 with G2. Even with 2.9 DLSS, I have to run reprojection 45fps on my G2 (rendering at 3k per eye, then DLSS quality applied), most settings on high except shadows. I do a lot of low level flying in helicopters, around Marianas, or Syria cities, etc. My frame times in those areas can get to 18-20.5ms pretty easily sometimes very close to the max 22ms before I am not longer holding 45fps to interpolate back out to 90fps reprojected. I am also running Fixed Foveated Rendering in the G2 via OpenXR toolkit, not as good as DFR no doubt, but I imagine it closes the gap at least a little in terms of how much net benefit I could expect from DFR?

As I understand, the G2 at 3k per eye is around 9 million pixels vs 21 million pixels of the higher resolution Pimax. Even with DFR enabled, I don't see how you could run the game with at a sustainable frame rate without dropping graphics settings heavily, or staying at high altitude or in maps like Causcus?

Am I missing something? Does the Crystal not actually incur as big of a performance loss over the G2? If so, why not?

 

[TAIPAN_]

11 hours ago, dsc106 said:

For those with the Crystal, how are you doing this in DCS with decent frames? I have a 4090 with G2. Even with 2.9 DLSS, I have to run reprojection 45fps on my G2 (rendering at 3k per eye, then DLSS quality applied), most settings on high except shadows. I do a lot of low level flying in helicopters, around Marianas, or Syria cities, etc. My frame times in those areas can get to 18-20.5ms pretty easily sometimes very close to the max 22ms before I am not longer holding 45fps to interpolate back out to 90fps reprojected. I am also running Fixed Foveated Rendering in the G2 via OpenXR toolkit, not as good as DFR no doubt, but I imagine it closes the gap at least a little in terms of how much net benefit I could expect from DFR?

As I understand, the G2 at 3k per eye is around 9 million pixels vs 21 million pixels of the higher resolution Pimax. Even with DFR enabled, I don't see how you could run the game with at a sustainable frame rate without dropping graphics settings heavily, or staying at high altitude or in maps like Causcus?

Am I missing something? Does the Crystal not actually incur as big of a performance loss over the G2? If so, why not?

 

Special tech that uses eye tracking, called QuadViews https://github.com/mbucchia/Quad-Views-Foveated/wiki

4090 you'll get 80-90fps with the right settings and probably won't need DLSS. 

Note that QuadViews only works with DCS and PavlovVR so far. The game has to program support for it, we're lucky DCS has done that. 

[ackattacker]

14 hours ago, dsc106 said:

For those with the Crystal, how are you doing this in DCS with decent frames? I have a 4090 with G2. Even with 2.9 DLSS, I have to run reprojection 45fps on my G2 (rendering at 3k per eye, then DLSS quality applied), most settings on high except shadows. I do a lot of low level flying in helicopters, around Marianas, or Syria cities, etc. My frame times in those areas can get to 18-20.5ms pretty easily sometimes very close to the max 22ms before I am not longer holding 45fps to interpolate back out to 90fps reprojected. I am also running Fixed Foveated Rendering in the G2 via OpenXR toolkit, not as good as DFR no doubt, but I imagine it closes the gap at least a little in terms of how much net benefit I could expect from DFR?

As I understand, the G2 at 3k per eye is around 9 million pixels vs 21 million pixels of the higher resolution Pimax. Even with DFR enabled, I don't see how you could run the game with at a sustainable frame rate without dropping graphics settings heavily, or staying at high altitude or in maps like Causcus?

Am I missing something? Does the Crystal not actually incur as big of a performance loss over the G2? If so, why not?

 

I’m not clear on the technical details, but Quadviews is much much better than either FFR or DFR using the OpenXR toolkit. My understanding is that the OpenXR method of foveated rendering occurs in the video card pipeline whereas Quadviews occurs in the game engine pipeline. Also at a certain point the video framtime is not just about the total pixels, but about the number of objects and their texture resolution. Even a low end system could display a simple solid polygon with millions of pixels. 

[dsc106]

I could use more detail… I don’t even get 80-90 on my G2 except in causcaus or high level flight. So I don’t see how that would be possible.

open Mariana’s free flight in Huey. Take off, fly just past the carrier on water at about 300-400ft, then turn counter clockwise back around. I will get around 50-52fps there with shadows flat, everything else mostly high, DLSS quality.

I fly low level rotor in the most taxing game situations. Even with quarries it seems the crystal should be twice as demanding?