investigating Lima Hellfires

[NoPro]

I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong but the L Hellfires are not hitting their target, not even close. 
 

I’ve build an own shooting range mission and the Apache is loaded with two K’s and two L’s. George lases the target and everything he is supposed to do (I guess) but after firing the Lima, it is hitting far far far away from the target. The Kilo’s are fine, just the Lima’s are making me trouble. 
 

I’m not sure if it’s me who does something wrong or is there something broken with George or the laser hellfire? I knew that there was an issue some time ago but I thought this was fixed. 
 

so any suggestions from you guys is much appreciated. 
 

cheers 

[Floyd1212]

Can you post a track?

[corbu1]

Are you in Hover or moving? Yes, a trackfile would be best.

[NoPro]

I will once I’m back home in a couple of days and at the PC. 

[krazyj]

are you playing stable version or open beta ? I have absolutely no issues with Limas in open beta, they work a treat

[Moxica]

Open beta. Some missions just don't work with Limas. They miss consistently; One mission to the left, one too short.
Switch to Kilos work.
(No, I don't have a track)

[krazyj]

14 hours ago, Moxica said:

Open beta. Some missions just don't work with Limas. They miss consistently; One mission to the left, one too short.
Switch to Kilos work.
(No, I don't have a track)

odd have used them from hover as well as in flight with no issues. have you tried to do a repair of DCS ?

[Moxica]

58 minutes ago, krazyj said:

odd have used them from hover as well as in flight with no issues. have you tried to do a repair of DCS ?

I have both repaired, and updated since I first saw it. Now it happened again just the other day.
Not all missions, but some missions can't be done with Lima.
Last such mission I tried, was "converted" from Hind to Apache.
 

[krazyj]

which missions did you try it in ? maybe one of us could try to see if we can duplicate the issue

[dedlike.]

i seem to find that if you mount the limas on the heli before its spooled up they rearly hit, if you rearm after the heli is up and running i get them to work 100%

[RallyNH]

I've had a similar issue with the Limas, (no track file, I was in multiplayer).  On a 4ya server from a hover I had 6 misses and 2 hits with the Lima, I don't honestly know if it is the missile or user error.  One thing I did notice, all my misses were shots at lower altitudes 35-ish feet AGL, and the hits were from 150 - 200 feet AGL.

[NoPro]

On 7/29/2023 at 5:25 AM, Floyd1212 said:

Can you post a track?

so here is the LOG and the TRK file. Hope this helps

Track Lima Hellfire 1.log Track Lima Hellfire 2.trk

[Floyd1212]

Wow, that was a very long track just to watch you fire one missile.  Thank God for the time acceleration feature.

It did appear that George found a target, lased it, and launched the missile, and then the missile fell short of the target.  I would also be interested in feedback from ED or a SME as to why the missile was unable to hit the target, and whether in a real-world situation if it should have.

One thing to note: as you are starting up the aircraft, it doesn't look like you get a good IHADSS Boresight, but this shouldn't effect the missile being able to track.  You do see that when you tell George to slave to your LOS, his crosshair ends up high and to the right of your LOS.

 

[BIGNEWY]

1 hour ago, nima2014 said:

so here is the LOG and the TRK file. Hope this helps

Track Lima Hellfire 1.log 11.37 kB · 2 downloads Track Lima Hellfire 2.trk 5.31 MB · 2 downloads

Hi, 

my only comment would be the target you are going for is partially masked by trees, so even though George is getting a lock and the missiles is launching,

when the lima is fired its going out to the general direction and it will find a target, often with close together targets it may not go for the one you intended it to. 

When I watched the track the missile hit to the right of the intended target, track replays are not always great so that maybe why also. 

I would suggest if you want to send more tracks do an air start closer to the targets it will shorten the track replay and have less to go wrong. 

thanks

[Floyd1212]

I can't speak for whether this particular track is playing back properly or not (though the OP can confirm), but I will say in my experiences both firing them myself from the front seat and from using George, I have seen many Limas missing their target and hitting the ground just like this, instead of finding any of the many tanks or vehicles it had to choose from in the vicinity.

[NoPro]

Sorry for the long track, I just wanted to make sure that I don’t make any mistake during start up which causes this issue with the Lima’s. I’ll give it a try in the open dessert and see if they can hit the target there. 

[NeedzWD40]

I've been trying to wrap my brain around what might be happening and thanks to @Floyd1212's excellent videos a month or so ago, have a couple theories:

First is that targets that are significantly above the aircraft don't cooperate very well with the way the missile works. All AGM-114 models outside of the P/R (and probably some other variants I'm forgetting) will climb to altitude based upon altitude at launch. That is to say, they don't know what altitude the target is at and will not climb up to meet it; there's a certain basket they look for and it's assuming a generally level altitude. I remember reading about this problem with AGM-114s utilized in Afghanistan early on, where extreme look-down angles would result in SAL missiles not catching the laser. This was more of a problem with missiles launched from fixed wing aircraft, but it was reported to have also impacted rotary wing.

The AGM-114L climbs to a fixed altitude based on distance with this same logic, expecting a target below itself and not above. As a result, if it catches a target level or above, it will make an extreme maneuver and bleed off energy as it tries to correct its ballistic trajectory, often ending up in the ground or next to an intended target. This is not a 100% always the case; in my testing, the missiles would pull off some pretty wild hits depending on target, launch angles, etc. There is a kind of sweet spot that can sometimes happen mid-range where the missile gets close enough at the peak of its climb to catch the target and hit without major ballistic changes, but this is hard to achieve with the typical LOAL launch. LOBL, on the other hand, has no such issues.

Second is that targets that are obscured all or partway from the missiles perspective can seemingly mask the seeker. This theory comes from a couple weeks ago where I fired off a missile with the wrong bias, where a forest obscured a significant portion of the missile's view. By the time it cleared the trees, it was already close enough to be terminal and hadn't acquired a target, resulting in a miss. I'd previously noticed this when targets were often in villages on Syria, where shots with the 114L could be flaky depending on aspect, range, and launch altitude.

This may or may not be the explanation for some of the performance issues being reported, but it may be something to consider when diagnosing the problem(s). I've attached some tracks demonstrating some of the behaviors I believe might be happening.

AGM-114L High Altitude 1.trk AGM-114L High Altitude 3.trk AGM-114L High Altitude 5.trk

[NeedzWD40]

10 hours ago, nima2014 said:

so here is the LOG and the TRK file. Hope this helps

I tried playing your track and George fired the first missile but wouldn't shoot a second, so I'm not sure if it recorded right or not. Out of curiosity, I took control from the start and tried it myself, first using George (1 out of 2 hits), then jumped in the front seat and tried myself. Both my shots missed, so I took a look through the systems and the INU position was completely out of whack. I restarted the track and took control again, then double checked INU a second time, checking out this time. Unfortunately, the missiles still went haywire; in particular, they weren't climbing to an appropriate altitude. So I did an inflight reset of the INUs and the missiles finally started hitting, both with me and George. This might be more related to INU errors and drift bugs than the missile itself.

[Floyd1212]

Wow, that's a lot of work; thanks for taking the time.

I hope ED is taking the time to look into this as well.

[Moxica]

On 7/30/2023 at 4:51 PM, krazyj said:

which missions did you try it in ? maybe one of us could try to see if we can duplicate the issue

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/es/files/3330250/

[NoPro]

20 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

my only comment would be the target you are going for is partially masked by trees, so even though George is getting a lock and the missiles is launching,

when the lima is fired its going out to the general direction and it will find a target, often with close together targets it may not go for the one you intended it to. 

When I watched the track the missile hit to the right of the intended target, track replays are not always great so that maybe why also. 

I would suggest if you want to send more tracks do an air start closer to the targets it will shorten the track replay and have less to go wrong. 

thanks

So, I tried the instant AH64 Nevada mission, there are some open targets at waypoint 7, no obstruction in the way or masked by anything. Two Lima’s were fired for this test, the first one was hitting the target, well actually it was not hitting the target itself but a few meters abeam from it and as this was a soft target, the target was damaged from the explosion…..don’t know if you would count that as a hit. The second missile has gone off as in my previous track. 

[TheGhostOfDefi]

Asking a general question: I have the assumption that the limas have a real problem with mountain terrain, even if fired under „good“ circumstances. So to get to my question, can it be that the Lima has problems with targets on that are on slopes? (Even LOBL shots missed).

[NeedzWD40]

1 hour ago, TheGhostOfDefi said:

So to get to my question, can it be that the Lima has problems with targets on that are on slopes? (Even LOBL shots missed).

In my testing, the most significant impact is whether or not the missile has to climb up to hit the target. As little as 500ft of altitude above the launch point can result in either a miss or going for a different target. This was tested in several locations on the Caucasus around mountains, trees, and villages. As long as the aircraft is in a shoot-down position, the hit rate (and exact target hit rate) is almost perfect.

[Moxica]

16 minutes ago, NeedzWD40 said:

In my testing, the most significant impact is whether or not the missile has to climb up to hit the target. As little as 500ft of altitude above the launch point can result in either a miss or going for a different target. This was tested in several locations on the Caucasus around mountains, trees, and villages. As long as the aircraft is in a shoot-down position, the hit rate (and exact target hit rate) is almost perfect.

None of "my situations" had target above my height.

[NeedzWD40]

9 minutes ago, Moxica said:

None of "my situations" had target above my height.

Did you try an INU reset prior to target engagement?