Make SPI w TPOD from an angle

[Moxica]

I'm under the impression (from experience) that I can not make/set SPI if looking at target with TPOD at an angle.
I'm wondering if there is a limitation, and if so, what is max. angle?

[Yurgon]

Not sure if there is a maximum range, but once the TGP (not TPOD, this ain't no Hornet) is slewed to the horizon and above it, it's obviously impossible to calculate a point on planet earth where the TGP line of sight intersects the ground, making it impossible to designate the TGP as SPI Generator.

Otherwise, I'm not quite sure what you mean. I'm not aware of any lateral or longitudinal angle limit that would prevent the TGP from generating a SPI.

So when you try to make the TGP SPI Generator with the Make SPI HOTAS command, does the lower left corner of the HUD not switch to "TGP"?

If you could post a track and describe exactly what you expect to happen and what happens instead, that would be a big help to clear things up.

[jaylw314]

AFAIK the TGP has a maximum slant range of 64 nm.  If you point the TGP above the horizon, it will be marking a point in space 64 nm away, so if you slave anything to the TGP, it'll aim at that point.

Based on the way you asked the question, though, it's unclear to me if that's what you're actually asking.  

[icemaker]

Look if you have the M indication.
The TGP has positions where some sensors are masked but not CCD (often LASER) that's why he refuses to lock a target.

[Moxica]

Thank you, guys.
Here's the scenario: Lookin at target with pod when flying against it at an angle. Not looking over the horizon, not banking.
If the angle is to steep, (Say 75º) I can not make a SPI.
Changing course towards target makes it possible (When getting within, what I suspect is minimum limit)
I have to fly fairly straight on to get that SPI.

[Yurgon]

1 hour ago, Moxica said:

If the angle is to steep, (Say 75º) I can not make a SPI.

Let me rephrase then:

On 9/16/2023 at 11:32 PM, Yurgon said:

Otherwise, I'm not quite sure what you mean. I'm not aware of any lateral or longitudinal angle limit that would prevent the TGP from generating a SPI.

So when you try to make the TGP SPI Generator with the Make SPI HOTAS command, does the lower left corner of the HUD not switch to "TGP"?

If you could post a track and describe exactly what you expect to happen and what happens instead, that would be a big help to clear things up.

5 hours ago, icemaker said:

The TGP has positions where some sensors are masked but not CCD (often LASER) that's why he refuses to lock a target.

As far as I'm aware, masking does not prevent generating a valid Sensor Point of Interest. So with the "M" indication for masking, the SPI Generator as indicated in the lower left corner of the HUD should not change away from "TGP" to, say, "STPT".

Sure, the TGP may no longer track a moving target, but that's not the problem OP described.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Yurgon

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, Moxica said:

Thank you, guys.
Here's the scenario: Lookin at target with pod when flying against it at an angle. Not looking over the horizon, not banking.
If the angle is to steep, (Say 75º) I can not make a SPI.
Changing course towards target makes it possible (When getting within, what I suspect is minimum limit)
I have to fly fairly straight on to get that SPI.

OK, that's a bit more specific, but it's still hard to figure what you're asking.  Does "steep" refer to the horizontal angle (azimuth) or vertical angle (elevation)? 

What does "make a SPI" mean specifically?  That phrase should mean that you're pressing TMS up long to make TGP show up in the lower left corner of the HUD like @Yurgon said above, but it seems almost certain that you are using that phrase to mean something else.

So I'm still guessing as to what your mistake is, but I think you're asking what angles the TGP can track targets in POINT mode.

Try this:

 

[Moxica]

No.
I usually fine tune the TGP after sync with waypoint, or otherwise existing SPI:
The I would press TMS up long to make a new SPI to sync the (non laser) Maverick.
Works like a charm, unless I'm at an angle, flying level, as in  paralel to the ground, and not head on.
"Make a SPI" mean pressing TMS up long, and turn the markpoint into a cake symbol.
-Can be done with all sensors.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Moxica

[Yurgon]

19 hours ago, Moxica said:

usually fine tune the TGP after sync with waypoint, or otherwise existing SPI:
The I would press TMS up long to make a new SPI to sync the (non laser) Maverick.
Works like a charm, unless I'm at an angle, flying level, as in  paralel to the ground, and not head on.

"Make SPI" doesn't do much to the other sensors.

Can you confirm that the HUD shows "TGP" in the lower left corner after you've pressed "Make SPI" with TGP as SOI?

Can you confirm that the TGP retains POINT or AREA track (as commanded) and that the TGP keeps looking at the proper object?

Can you confirm that the HUD keeps showing "TGP" in the lower left corner throughout these issues that the thread is about?

And do I understand correctly that after the steps you described above you then follow it up with the "Slave All to SPI" HOTAS command, but now the Maverick (as opposed to the TGP) isn't always able to track the SPI?

If the answer to all of the above is yes, then this sounds like a simple case of Maverick gimbal limits.

If the answer to any of the above is not "yes", I can only reiterate that we need more information and preferably a track.

[jaylw314]

21 hours ago, Moxica said:

No.
I usually fine tune the TGP after sync with waypoint, or otherwise existing SPI:
The I would press TMS up long to make a new SPI to sync the (non laser) Maverick.
Works like a charm, unless I'm at an angle, flying level, as in  paralel to the ground, and not head on.
"Make a SPI" mean pressing TMS up long, and turn the markpoint into a cake symbol.
-Can be done with all sensors.

If TGP is SOI and you press TMS up long, it will make "TGP" appear in the lower left of the HUD and you will see the wedding cake symbol where the TGP is looking on any other relevant sensor.  If TGP is SOI, any subsequent press of TMS up long will do absolutely nothing.

Edited September 19, 2023 by jaylw314

[Moxica]

1 hour ago, Yurgon said:

"Make SPI" doesn't do much to the other sensors.

Can you confirm that the HUD shows "TGP" in the lower left corner after you've pressed "Make SPI" with TGP as SOI?

Can you confirm that the TGP retains POINT or AREA track (as commanded) and that the TGP keeps looking at the proper object?

Can you confirm that the HUD keeps showing "TGP" in the lower left corner throughout these issues that the thread is about?

And do I understand correctly that after the steps you described above you then follow it up with the "Slave All to SPI" HOTAS command, but now the Maverick (as opposed to the TGP) isn't always able to track the SPI?

If the answer to all of the above is yes, then this sounds like a simple case of Maverick gimbal limits.

If the answer to any of the above is not "yes", I can only reiterate that we need more information and preferably a track.

I can confirm that TGP is SOI, and I can lock target AND make SPI with it.
New specification: I can not lock target in described situation. Thus neither make a SPI. I fix it by changing course, and fly (more) head on.
So, I can not confirm that "TGP" shows up in the HUD.
I have to do some more testing to answer other questions.
 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Moxica

[Yurgon]

2 hours ago, Moxica said:

New specification: I can not lock target in described situation. Thus neither make a SPI. I fix it by changing course, and fly (more) head on.
So, I can not confirm that "TGP" shows up in the HUD.

So to double-check: at certain angles, the TGP doesn't track targets, correct? And are those moving targets, or is it also unable to track stationary objects? In those cases, does it show "M" for "masked"? icemaker asked this question already and it seems it's pretty important.

Can you at least post a screenshot of the TGP screen when this happens, and can you please also post a screenshot showing the HUD after you used the "Make SPI" HOTAS command on the TGP?

Even when the TGP is masked and shows the "M" indication, that doesn't (shouldn't, at least) prevent it from generating the SPI, and using the HOTAS command "Make SPI" on the TGP should still place the SPI where the TGP line of sight intersects the ground, and the HUD indication in the lower left corner should still switch over to "SPI", and the TAD and HMCS should show the SPI symbol (the 3-layered wedding cake symbol) right where the TGP is looking (and the HMCS should also show the TGP field of view box around the SPI symbol, if my memory doesn't fail me).

I'm trying to figure out if there's something broken with DCS, or in your specific DCS installation, or if it's user error. Right now it sounds like you might not fully understand what the SPI is, how sensors generate it, and what the difference is between tracking an object and creating a SPI.

So, once again, if you can provide us with a complete and detailed description of the actions you take regarding HOTAS commands and the SOI, and if you can illustrate this with screenshots or a (short!) track, we can probably give you very specific advice within one response. Right now, though, we have to ask tons of questions and do a lot of guesswork, meaning this could drag on for another week.

[Moxica]

I can try to fly a mission with this "challenge" (Quick action in Normandy)
I will skip all wayponts until the bridge or the next after bridge, where there are some AA threats.
Because threats, I do not fly directly towards waypoint/SPI
Slave TGP to SPI. Find target in TGP, and try to lock it up. (As I do on other targets in same mission, with success, but flying head on target)
I will not be able to lock until I change course and fly straight(er) towards targets .
..Save track. Upload here.
-At work right now.
Thanks a lot!