Case III Marshall Question

[bonesvf103]

So in both the DCS manual and the NATOPS it says about the Case III marshall:

"The holding pattern is a six-minute left-hand pattern. Unless otherwise briefed, the pattern will be flown at max conserve fuel flow or NATOPS holding airspeed. Two-minute turns and one-minute legs are normally used for the pattern."

Since it is a 6 minute pattern, then I read this to mean you enter a turn where you will complete 180 deg of turn in 2 minutes, fly straight 1 minute, then turn back 180 deg in 2 minutes, then fly straight for 1 minute.  All of that means you are completing a circuit in 6 minutes total.

Coming from a general aviation point of view, when I read "2 minute turn" I understand it as a 2 minute standard turn, ie you turn 360 deg in 2 minutes.

So am I right in thinking that though it is a standard 2 minute turn in a civilian hold, in the NATOPS hold you will actually do a slower turn rate turn?  In the civilian hold it would take you 1 minute to turn 180 deg, but NATOPS suggests it should take 2 minutes to turn 180 deg.  So in actuality when following NATOPS, you are actually doing twice a civilian hold turn (a 4 minute turn rather than a 2 minute turn).

So when I turn, it should take me about 18 seconds to do 9 degrees of turn per NATOPS.  Which is a pretty wide turn compared to the civilian hold.  Is my thinking correct?

Also I found the attached pic in "Aircraft Carrier Operating Procedures for DCS World Rev 1."  Looking at that, it shows that it takes 2 minutes to turn 180 degrees.  However, it also shows that it takes 2 minutes to fly straight.  NATOPS says a 1 minute leg.  So is this pic wrong?  This pic shows an 8 minute left hand pattern not a 6.  Or am I missing something?

 

Maybe it comes down to this all being recommended since there are no hard and fast rule how to do this except to stay at your assigned altitude and DME and make your push time?

Thanks.

v6,

boNes

[Tusky]

hace 1 hora, bonesvf103 dijo:

So am I right in thinking that though it is a standard 2 minute turn in a civilian hold, in the NATOPS hold you will actually do a slower turn rate turn?  In the civilian hold it would take you 1 minute to turn 180 deg, but NATOPS suggests it should take 2 minutes to turn 180 deg.  So in actuality when following NATOPS, you are actually doing twice a civilian hold turn (a 4 minute turn rather than a 2 minute turn).

You are correct.

hace 1 hora, bonesvf103 dijo:

So when I turn, it should take me about 18 seconds to do 9 degrees of turn per NATOPS.  Which is a pretty wide turn compared to the civilian hold.  Is my thinking correct?

3 seconds to turn 9° in a standard turn (3° per second) and 6 seconds in half standard (1,5° per second). Keep in mind though that in a case III marshall you are holding above the sea and you are not airspace restricted.

hace 1 hora, bonesvf103 dijo:

Also I found the attached pic in "Aircraft Carrier Operating Procedures for DCS World Rev 1."  Looking at that, it shows that it takes 2 minutes to turn 180 degrees.  However, it also shows that it takes 2 minutes to fly straight.  NATOPS says a 1 minute leg.  So is this pic wrong?  This pic shows an 8 minute left hand pattern not a 6.  Or am I missing something?

Yeah. The picture should probably be amended...

Edited September 29, 2023 by Tusky

[bonesvf103]

THANKS so much for confirming I was not going crazy!!!

v6,

boNes

[Nealius]

From various podcasts (Tomcast, Aircrew Interview, 10-percent True, Fighter Pilot Podcast) this 6-minute pattern (and the speeds in it) are not a 100% hard rule. Pilots have told stories of doing shorter orbits (don't recall who) and even pushing the jet to 400-500kts ground speed to hit commence time ("Puck" on flying the F-14D).