Is this a good computer to start DCS with?

[SlimSim]

Hi

I want to start with DCS (my last simulator experience was Jane's F/A-18...) And I need to upgrade my computer, and would much appreciate some input!

I have found a used computer with the following specs:

• CPU: Ryzen 9 5950X 16 cores, 32 threads
• Graphics: ASUS RTX 3090 24GB TUF Gaming
• Motherboard: ASUS X570-F Gaming
• RAM: Corsair 64GB (2x32GB) DDR4 3600MHz CL18 Vengeance RGB PRO
• SSD: Samsung 980 PRO M.2 NVMe SSD 2TB

And my question is if this would be a good computer for starting of with DCS and eventually VR (with the Quest 3?)? Is it overkill or to little?
And what you would think would be a reasonably price for the computer?

Many thanks for any help!
Looking forward to flying again!

PS, If i posted this in the wrong forum, I'm sorry and feel free to correct me DS 

[LucShep]

Depends on price.
Current used (second hand) prices on such components of that list are roughly like this, in a good scenario for individual components (on EBAY):

• CPU: Ryzen 9 5950X 16 cores, 32 threads ---- 360€
• Graphics: ASUS RTX 3090 24GB TUF Gaming ---- 670€ 
• Motherboard: ASUS ROG Strix X570-F Gaming ---- 220€
• RAM: Corsair 64GB (2x32GB) DDR4 3600MHz CL18 Vengeance RGB PRO ---- 150€ 
• SSD: Samsung 980 PRO M.2 NVMe SSD 2TB ---- 100€
  
  TOTAL -- EUR 1500.00€  /  USD $1578.00  /  GBP £1300.00
   

You need to add some inflation on final price for a full working PC with those components, because it has to also have a good quality ~1000W PSU (100€+), a good spacious ventilated case (100€+), and a good CPU Cooler on it (100€~), and all has to be in very good condition. That, and Win 10/11 OS to be ready to game. 

That full working rig if somewhat close to EUR 1800.00€ / USD $1900.00 / GBP £1560.00 is a great second-hand PC purchase. 
Not overkill and definitely not too little - it's in the "goldilocks" zone for DCS - good performance on a 4K monitor (or TV) and eventually for VR as well (with adjusted settings).

That said, it's DCS we're talking here with all its shenanigans... don't go in believing that it's guaranteed to be peachy, as hardware doesn't solve everything.
Plus, we never know when DCS gets another performance hit in future (got worse in last few years). Meaning, what's great today, may not be so in just a couple of years time.

Edited October 18, 2023 by LucShep
spelling(?)

[SlimSim]

Thank you so much!

I might just go for that

[kksnowbear]

You know, as someone who actually buys/sells used and new components and systems, I have to jump in here...

First, let me say I admire you (LucShep) and have found your advice to be generally helpful and accurate...

...but I also have to ask, if we're talking used parts here, is there any guarantee of support, warranty, and history on these parts?  Is it a trusted seller who can offer references from known sources who can be verified?  Do they offer trade-in for used parts on the initial sale, as well as future upgrades?  Do they provide free labor for life on any upgrades or repairs?  An absolute iron-clad, 100% satisfaction or money back guarantee?

Not to complicate matters, but these things all have definite value and cannot be ignored.  If you shop/buy based on cost alone, you may well find yourself regretting that purchase sooner or later.

The second-hand market can be a useful resource for saving money when buying a PC.  Unfortunately, the reality is that there are also opportunities for problems and dishonest people in the world.

I tell people who are considering stuff I offer that they might get a better price - but I honestly feel that, if we're looking at actual value, I offer a better deal.

Just a different perspective that is worth considering.

To the OP: Best of luck   As I've said above, LucShep knows what he's talking about (his advice has helped me in the past, and I've been doing this professionally for many decades).

Edited October 18, 2023 by kksnowbear

[SlimSim]

Thank you kksnowbear, I will take you points into consideration!

[LucShep]

@kksnowbear that's a very good point, and I'd say that a used PC is mostly for someone who is accustomated to fiddling with PC components.

Some awesome deals on used parts, but then it's not perfect (otherwise every single person would do it!).
I go at it for myself and those close to me, and recommend it but... there's always that con - warranty, unknown "real" condition, etc. 
If it's someone not used to PC hardware, either get assistance from a known person/friend that is experienced and can be trusted to handle it for you, otherwise you better be sure the seller (the store/provider or person) can assist before and after selling it, to avoid frustration and very possible bitter moments.

Edited October 18, 2023 by LucShep

[kksnowbear]

Yessir...and also let me add: There is a huge difference in buying a complete used system, specifically built, tested, and warranteed/supported as a system, compared to buying parts separately (regardless of where).

Imagine this scenario: You buy used parts (even if you're OK with building it yourself and have done it a few times)... After you get the whole thing running, something starts misbehaving.  Now, even though you've built a PC maybe once or twice, you're not a professional tech.  You have neither the tools, training, experience or time/patience to deal with a problem like this (we're talking the kind of problem that can give even experienced techs a very hard time).

So you've bought a motherboard from one guy, a GPU from another, and a PSU from a third source....

The guy who sold you the motherboard, insists the problem is the GPU.

The guy who sold you the GPU, says the problem is obviously the PSU.

The guy who sold you the PSU says it's likely either the motherboard or GPU (or both...)

(Of course, they all say it could also be your memory...or a driver...or, or, or...)

(And BTW you also don't have two rooms full of parts to swap in and out to determine what the problem is.)

What you have now for your money is a big finger-pointing contest.

By comparison: When I've sold a system, in the rare event there's a problem, they bring the whole shebang back...if I can't fix it and show proof it's actually fixed, they can get 100% of their money back.  They don't have to do anything else.  And yes, I have also gone to customers' location or paid shipping BOTH WAYS when the rare problem did happen.  I say 'rare' here because by the time these systems have left my shop they've been subject to solid days of testing, sometimes running 24 hours+ to make sure they're stable.  And, oh yeah: I *do* have two rooms full of parts to test with  

Simply put, I stand behind what I sold, period.  Not many used parts sellers are going to offer that level of support, at all.

This is not intended to get off course too far, but I think these are significant points which change the equation considerably, and are often overlooked.

Edited October 18, 2023 by kksnowbear

[kksnowbear]

Oh, one other thing (a free professional tip, if you will)...

I wouldn't go with the Corsair RAM if you intend to actually use the RGB feature.   To be brief, it won't cooperate with other lighting in that build (and I actually own/have used very similar or exact same parts in my own personal machine, so this is first-hand experience).

For whatever idiotic reason, the manufacturers do not implement RGB functionality per any standard or spec.  They all have their own, proprietary method.  In rare cases, it might work together, but the odds of that happening diminish as you go to different manufacturers for various components.  They all want you to install and run their stupid 'helper app' just to use RGB lighting.  Bullsh!t, but there it is.  I know of one exception to this rule that I've had decent luck with, but it's not perfect, either.

If you want RGB functionality that works, use the Asus motherboard's control (as big of a bloated PITA as it is) and get memory from a more 'generic' source (i.e. NOT Corsair).  I've had great experiences with XPG, Team and V-Color memory - and TBH, the internal components on RAM modules are often very close if not identical to bigger 'name brands' like Corsair.  It's all made by one of a dozen or so manufacturers (and Corsair is not a manufacturer).

I believe the three big companies actually making memory chips today are Hynix, Micron, and Samsung (there are a half-dozen other smaller outfits, I think, but those are the big three).  Point is that brands like Corsair, AData/XPG, Team etc, etc...they all build modules containing chips from one of a few places, so you're getting the same guts even if the package is different.

(Incidentally, this is the kind of thing that people pay me for, and get, when I'm building a system: Knowing what works best with what - and they don't have to know or worry about it, because if I can't make it work, they don't pay for it - as it should be).

Edited October 18, 2023 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

@SlimSim The trouble with asking for expert advice on a forum is you might need to be an expert yourself to understand it all I notice your post mentions not having perhaps played these games since 1999 so all the advice about building your own PC may be quite misplaced. Simply put, you are much better off to buy a machine from a gaming PC vendor than to attempt building it yourself, especially from pre-owned parts. That’s just a black hole of frustration. You have to realize some people really want to deal with that sort of thing as a hobby or their job and if that’s what you’re looking for. Great. Many of us just want to push a button and play the game. A PC vendor can offer tech support, warranties, free upgrades and labor etc.

There are two kinds of gamers: Players and Users. Players just play the game. Users use the game to play with their PC and tinker with it and work on it. Figure which one you are and be that person the drudgery and frustration of continually trouble shooting a PC is not worthwhile IMO since I’m the former.  

Any good gaming PC can handle DCS. One important criteria though is you’ll want a CPU with good single-thread performance. Yes DCS has multi-core in the works but the speed of each core is still going to be a limiting factor. This demand is rather unique to sims like DCS compared to typical games. Essentially you will want the best you can afford from a list like this.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

Regarding VR  there’s no such thing as “overkill” with that, it will struggle on the strongest machine money can buy. Unless you’re a glutton for punishment I’d stay away from it. Unless again your goal is to constantly fiddle with your hardware or you’re ok with mediocre performance from very expensive components.

PS the system specs listed on the DCS page are a joke, they’re like 7 years out of date. Especially the specs for VR, which again there is no realistic spec for.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Dragon1-1]

I currently fly in VR (Reverb G2) with a 1080ti and a Ryzen 5800X3D, so YMMW. It's great, although I'm looking at 3090 now that DLSS is a thing (already bought a case and PSU for it). But it's true that there's no such thing as overkill for VR. Even if your current headset runs smoothly, the next DCS update might introduce something that'll bog it down, or you'll get a better headset with more pixels, and it'll stop running so smoothly. Right now, DCS isn't best at doing VR, due to still using DX11, so performance will be inferior to other VR games.

On a Quest 3, the quoted specs should breeze through VR. The only point that I'd be leery of is Corsair memory, unless you absolutely must have iCue-controlled RGB lighting. I admit I'm a sucker for pretty lights, but if you're willing to sacrifice them, there are much cheaper options. iCue is not a bad app, but unless you're building the whole RGB system around it (or have some other Corsair kit you need it for), it's not really worth bothering with.

Also, what PSU? Make sure you have enough power, a setup like that will be a hog. If you've got an UPS, make sure it's up to it, too, I managed to overload my last one with my current setup, had to get a much beefier model. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[SlimSim]

Thanks everybody for this great feedback!

Just to clarify a few points:

1) I have found a complete working computer, with chassi and all with the parts i listed, So i figure that the power supply is up to snuff and the ram works and all that stuff

2) Having lights in the computer is not a requirement, so if RGB is the only reason to stay away from the Corsair, then it is still ok for me

3) Yes, I'm more of a "player" than a "user", but I'm also aware that I might have to enter the graphics settings to adjust some parameters to make the game run smooth (I might come back to the forum when I'm there ), but I figure that since my benchmark for graphics is this:  

I have a pretty low bar don't you think?

 

Thanks again for all the feedback!

[BitMaster]

No matter how you turn it, there will be s a steep learning curve ahead of you, for DCS and for the rig itself.

What will help you gather knowledge over time is THIS forum, hands down. Read this forum for a few years and you will be a lot more competent than you can imagine.

 

LED.... the modern nightmare. Turn them off and call it a day !

 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, BitMaster said:

LED.... the modern nightmare. Turn them off and call it a day !

Ah you want to be able to see all the computery goodness inside the machine. No lights is no fun

[diego999]

That rig is very solid for VR with a Quest 3.

Be prepared to spend a month changing settings tho.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, diego999 said:

That rig is very solid for VR with a Quest 3.

Be prepared to spend a month changing settings tho.

That’s a funny contradiction in those two sentences.

Theres no such thing as a “solid rig” for VR

[diego999]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s a funny contradiction in those two sentences.

Theres no such thing as a “solid rig” for VR

 

Do you play in VR?

I do.

With a worse PC than his.

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, diego999 said:

 

Do you play in VR?

I do.

With a worse PC than his.

No I’ve read enough about it to be scared away from it forever like what you just said about spending a month fiddling with settings. No thanks, that’s insane. I’d rather spend my time actually playing the game.

[Dragon1-1]

12 hours ago, SlimSim said:

1) I have found a complete working computer, with chassi and all with the parts i listed, So i figure that the power supply is up to snuff and the ram works and all that stuff

If you have a good deal on that machine, go for it. It's probably got some more RGB stuff from Corsair that wasn't listed. You don't actually need to use iCue for anything else but RAM, but do check it out, especially if you like pretty lights.

Also, if it's a full machine, just plug and play, then it's got a lot more than the aforementioned components. They're probably fine, but it's important to ensure they're not cheap crap. PSU, but also the cooling solution, be it air or water cooled (systems like this have a good chance of using water), case itself and anything else like fan and/or RGB controllers. To have this system running well, it needs a competent cooling solution, which it should have, but it's not a given. It's easy to throw a bunch of expensive components together and they'll probably work that way, but a well thought out system will greatly extend both life and performance of those components.

One thing you need to know about systems this powerful is that they pump out an enormous amount of heat when under load. This heat needs to go somewhere in order not to cook your silicon, which means you need somewhere to draw in cool air from and have a place to discharge the hot air. So make sure you've also got plenty of room around that system, and that it will have a good environment for it to operate in. This also applies to your own comfort (especially in VR, sweating under the goggles is never fun), a box like this can make temperature in the room soar, so make sure your AC can keep up, or else you've got a window or something that you can open, particularly if you're somewhere with hot summers.

For a typical ATX case, intake is on the front and bottom, exhaust is from the top and back. The bottom is usually reserved for the PSU, although some builds, mine included, do have fans there (mostly for looks, admittedly). Water cooler will be front or top, top is better for temps, front can usually take a bigger radiator. Air is usually a big slab of copper and aluminum over the CPU, in that case just ensuring good airflow will be enough.

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

No thanks, that’s insane.

So don't do it. Use a conservative setting that runs smoothly, and stick with that. I didn't spend anything close to a month fiddling with settings. It helps to understand what each setting does, how heavy it is and what is it heavy on (CPU/GPU). Tooltips in the settings menu help. Once you know what does what it's not that hard to set up.

If you're spending a month fiddling with settings, this means your configuration is underpowered, or your expectations too high. It takes a beefy system indeed to get all eyecandy on a 4K headset. Oculus Rift, by contrast, with its tiny screen, ran fine on my previous rig, 1080ti and a 4770k.

[LucShep]

8 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

No I’ve read enough about it to be scared away from it forever like what you just said about spending a month fiddling with settings. No thanks, that’s insane. I’d rather spend my time actually playing the game.

3 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

So don't do it. Use a conservative setting that runs smoothly, and stick with that. I didn't spend anything close to a month fiddling with settings. It helps to understand what each setting does, how heavy it is and what is it heavy on (CPU/GPU). Tooltips in the settings menu help. Once you know what does what it's not that hard to set up.

If you're spending a month fiddling with settings, this means your configuration is underpowered, or your expectations too high. It takes a beefy system indeed to get all eyecandy on a 4K headset. Oculus Rift, by contrast, with its tiny screen, ran fine on my previous rig, 1080ti and a 4770k.

YMMV but, I got to say, having enough system to run any sim/game in VR that I throw at it (w/ Reverb G1 headset), I find DCS 2.8 incredibly finicky to run VR, when it runs fine here in a 4K monitor/TV nearly maxxed out. The "other competitors sims" all run smooth and with no issues in VR, it's not even comparable.
Seems to me VR is very neglected in DCS, and it is indeed a PITA to set it up and try to make it run well (to no avail), no matter if using MT or ST.
Almost like DCS is just not meant for it (i.e, it works but not that great). In the end, after every combo and trick in the book, my only solution was to revert to an older DCS version (check my sig) and, finally, it works great in VR. Only then I could leave settings and testing alone and run it as expected, without fear of having yet another update borking things up again. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by LucShep

[SlimSim]

Thanks for all the input!
 

You may have scared me away from VR, at least for a while, but it is a dream to fly in VR at some time, so I'm not giving up on it!

[Dragon1-1]

28 minutes ago, SlimSim said:

You may have scared me away from VR, at least for a while, but it is a dream to fly in VR at some time, so I'm not giving up on it!

I advise you to plug it in and try. Do note that there's an update coming, right now (unless there's a last minute delay), that will add DLSS. It'll probably be out before you're done setting up your new rig, anyway. That will potentially improve performance by leaps and bounds when running an RTX GPU. So any advice regarding performance will, in a few hours, be subject to revision.

Yes, DCS is poorly optimized for VR, largely owing to being poorly optimized in general, and running on DX11 makes any problem twice as bad, because it renders the scene twice. Quest 3 is not 4K, though, and with a rig that powerful, you should be able to run it without problems. Some fiddling with settings is always involved, but that's a given. There's nothing better than flying a long VR mission on a cold day, so to speak.  

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, LucShep said:

Almost like DCS is just not meant for it

It’s not that DCS isn’t meant for VR. VR wasn’t meant for DCS. VR will never be able to run demanding games as well as 2D. And this game targets its performance at 2D. VR can only run well on games intended for VR. DCS has things like huge draw distances and object counts as well as flight model physics and such. The only way to make it run well in VR would be to compromise all that. Look at the VTOL VR game, that’s what DCS would need to be like in order to run well in VR. That’s not really appealing to this player base. 

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Do note that there's an update coming

There’s always an update coming. But the same reality above still applies. Performance for VR will always remain out of reach due to the fact that it’s running 3D and the game will continue to evolve its features and demand based upon 2D. 

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

DCS is poorly optimized for VR, largely owing to being poorly optimized in general, and running on DX11 makes any problem twice as bad, because it renders the scene twice.

This is the crux of the problem. VR will always require stereoscopic rendering by its very nature. I can’t see how Vulkan can avoid this reality. 

[Hiob]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s not that DCS isn’t meant for VR. VR wasn’t meant for DCS. VR will never be able to run demanding games as well as 2D. And this game targets its performance at 2D. VR can only run well on games intended for VR. DCS has things like huge draw distances and object counts as well as flight model physics and such. The only way to make it run well in VR would be to compromise all that. Look at the VTOL VR game, that’s what DCS would need to be like in order to run well in VR. That’s not really appealing to this player base. 

All correct, except the flight model physics. That strain doesn't change between VR and 2D.

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, Hiob said:

All correct, except the flight model physics. That strain doesn't change between VR and 2D.

Right but that simply adds to the overall load. Maybe multicore can sort that out a bit but VR still suffers with it. It wasn’t the gigantic boost many were pinning their hopes on.

[Hiob]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

Right but that simply adds to the overall load. Maybe multicore can sort that out a bit but VR still suffers with it. It wasn’t the gigantic boost many were pinning their hopes on.

At least not yet. I guess that will further improve over time. CPU really shouldn't be a bottleneck for VR, but it certainly is sometimes now.