resolved New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, JCTherik said:

and in 3-10 miles the best solution would be a gentle scaling.

No because you’d see ridiculous stuff like this. That’s an example of what silly Serfoss scaling would look like in DCS

 

 

[Tippis]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

No because you’d see ridiculous stuff like this. That’s an example of what silly Serfoss scaling would look like in DCS

 

 

No you wouldn't, because that's not how scaling works. You'd know this if you had actually tested it or read up on it or done anything other than make up guesses based on pure imagination.

[JCTherik]

7 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

No because you’d see ridiculous stuff like this. That’s an example of what silly Serfoss scaling would look like in DCS

 

 

It's a strawman argument, but I'd still rather have that than an airplane that's a clearly visible UFO at 20 miles but an invisible shimmer at 5 miles, since we're talking about looking ridiculous.

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, JCTherik said:

It's a strawman argument, but I'd still rather have that than an airplane that's a clearly visible UFO at 20 miles but an invisible shimmer at 5 miles, since we're talking about looking ridiculous.

That image was made by a proponent of smart scaling who actually thought that looked acceptable  

The big trouble with that method is you’d see scaled up aircraft up against non scaled objects and it would look ridiculous.

Scaling is really off-topic here. This is a bug report thread for the spotting dots, ED has already stated several times that they have no interest in scaling. Let’s stay on topic.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by SharpeXB

[JCTherik]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

That image was made by a proponent of smart scaling who actually thought that looked acceptable  

The big trouble with that method is you’d see scaled up aircraft up against non scaled objects and it would look ridiculous.

Scaling is really off-topic here. This is a bug report thread for the spotting dots, ED has already stated several times that they have no interest in scaling. Let’s stay on topic.

 

 

Nobody is forcing you to use scaling. And so far the feedback seems to be that while the improved dots are a stopgap solution that's better than what it was, we pretty much universally agree that it has plenty of issues, like the fact that the airplane disappears into distance and then reappears further away when the dot kicks in.

On my setup, airplanes are functionally invisible outside around 2 mile radius against terrain, yet are fairly easy to see against a blue sky. That's way closer than the dot would appear.

If you don't want scaling, that's on you, i think there should be an on off setting or a momentary bindable button, and you shouldn't be forced to use it.

I simply cannot play A2A currently, since the enemy airplane disappears into the terrain shimmer on the far side of the circle if we merge a bit too fast. So while you want to have your scale perfect in every scenario, that also means that my game is virtually unplayable in A2A. And please don't suggest labels while claiming that scaling is unrealistic.

 

So, what do i do to play A2A that's not labels? Do you have a better solution than scaling?

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, JCTherik said:

Nobody is forcing you to use scaling.

Right because there will never be scaling in DCS. The devs have said repeatedly that they have no interest in doing this. So that’s really off topic here. 

1 hour ago, JCTherik said:

On my setup, airplanes are functionally invisible outside around 2 mile radius against terrain,

Yes this is why camouflage was invented. Aircraft in DCS are very visible at 2 miles in any case and depending on their aspect, since they’re moving. 

1 hour ago, JCTherik said:

So, what do i do to play A2A that's not labels? Do you have a better solution than scaling?

Don’t play A2A then, there are plenty of other things to do in DCS. Or use the dot labels and/or spotting dots. If you can’t see an aircraft at 2 miles then scaling it up won’t help you. If it’s an issue with your eyesight there are ways to treat that although if you’re reading this text your vision is good enough to see a plane 2 miles away on your screen. 
PS I realize you’re using VR. The low resolution there is a limit of the technology, not a shortcoming with DCS. If you want to see better in A2A you should use a monitor. VR just isn’t ready for flight sims like this. Maybe make use of the VR zoom view.

Edited December 12, 2023 by SharpeXB

[JCTherik]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Aircraft in DCS are very visible at 2 miles

For YOU on YOUR hardware!

I see the airplane fine in low res, it's the high res i have a problem with.

You keep denying a problem you know nothing about, blaming my hardware which is one of the common popular headsets, blaming my eyesight and dismissing the issue. I don't think anything productive will come out of this.

I don't play A2A and I'd like to, but i just can't currently.

But the mindset that you share with some other people in the community is really blocking any reasonable discussion about it.

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

For YOU on YOUR hardware!

For anyone. A aircraft only 2 miles away is huge and easily seen. Your problems are related to VR although it seems many people are able to play DCS in VR without this trouble. How much would you expect to see an aircraft at this distance scaled up? It would be farcical like that image above.
But if this is such a bother to you perhaps you should consider playing these sims in 2D. It will be a very very long time until technology allows VR to replicate 20/20 vision. 

[Extranajero]

1 hour ago, JCTherik said:

For YOU on YOUR hardware!

I see the airplane fine in low res, it's the high res i have a problem with.

You keep denying a problem you know nothing about, blaming my hardware which is one of the common popular headsets, blaming my eyesight and dismissing the issue. I don't think anything productive will come out of this.

I don't play A2A and I'd like to, but i just can't currently.

But the mindset that you share with some other people in the community is really blocking any reasonable discussion about it.

Ignore him - you won't make him see reason because he's obsessed with the idea that someone might get a tiny advantage over him in PVP and is willing to have every other DCS user blind as long as he personally is OK.
The tiny number of ultra competitive people like him have been screaming and shouting over perceived 'balance' issues out of all proportion to their actual numbers for years - they've been an absolute pestilence on the DCS community and they've had it all their own way for much too long. I don't know why they don't just take up Fortnite, if they want to participate in an E-Sport.
 

[Tippis]

10 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

That image was made by a proponent of smart scaling who actually thought that looked acceptable  

No, that's not actually what was said. But you already know this. You are just so absolutely against this methodology that you are — by your own admission — clueless about that you must lie at every point to try to paint your baseless fantasies about it in a bad light.

The point of the image was to show to you that even if your ignorant and baseless assertions about how it would look were true — and they aren't — you conclusion would still be wrong. So either way, you'd be wrong. At no point have you ever been able to demonstrate that your claims and fantasies have any correlation to any known reality.

 

10 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The big trouble with that method is you’d see scaled up aircraft up against non scaled objects and it would look ridiculous.

Wrong.

The trouble is that you falsely believe that it works that way because you refuse to read up on it or look at any implementations on it, and instead rely on your baseless assumptions. You have no idea how it would look because you have never seen it.

 

10 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Scaling is really off-topic here.

It really isn't. Scaling is an alternative to the current solution which would be a very viable way of implementing what's needed in case people are not happy with how the dots turn out. You know, the point of the thread: feedback. The more you fight against every attempt to improve spotting in DCS, the more likely it is that the devs end up reversing their previous stance (and remember, that stance was in part based on them misunderstanding their own code…).

 

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

For anyone.

Nope. Computers don't work that way.

2 hours ago, Extranajero said:

Ignore him - you won't make him see reason because he's obsessed with the idea that someone might get a tiny advantage over him in PVP and is willing to have every other DCS user blind as long as he personally is OK.
The tiny number of ultra competitive people like him have been screaming and shouting over perceived 'balance' issues out of all proportion to their actual numbers for years - they've been an absolute pestilence on the DCS community and they've had it all their own way for much too long. I don't know why they don't just take up Fortnite, if they want to participate in an E-Sport.
 

To add to this, it's also worth nothing that he's not against people having advantages in PvP. As long he's one of those people. It's when others have advantages that he doesn't that it suddenly becomes a problem. This is why he was so very adamant that the old dots were fine, and why he used the ridiculously unrealistic spotting distances to prove that, actually, it was just everyone else being bad for not spotting things (you may have noticed this argument come up again here). But the second he realised that this system actually provided others an advantage (due to their hardware and software setup) that he didn't have (because his hardware and software setup gave him a different advantage), it was suddenly the most horrible thing ever and must be changed.

Just not to anything that works. Because then he would lose his advantage.

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Extranajero said:

Ignore him - you won't make him see reason because he's obsessed with the idea that someone might get a tiny advantage over him in PVP and is willing to have every other DCS user blind as long as he personally is OK.
The tiny number of ultra competitive people like him have been screaming and shouting over perceived 'balance' issues out of all proportion to their actual numbers for years - they've been an absolute pestilence on the DCS community and they've had it all their own way for much too long. I don't know why they don't just take up Fortnite, if they want to participate in an E-Sport.
 

A lot of us, certainly the majority, don’t want to be forced to choose between having an ugly game or being at a disadvantage. Right now in 2.9 if you don’t want to look at giant blobs on your screen you’re playing at a disadvantage to those who can choose to. It’s not about being ultra competitive, it’s about multiplayer being a total joke where players can exploit the dot settings to see you miles way without even using their radar. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

A lot of us, certainly the majority, don’t want to be forced to choose between having an ugly game or being at a disadvantage.

You don't have to. You just get a different advantage than the other guy. But again, that was always the issue wasn't it? As long as it was you who had the advantage, the other guys' disadvantage was just them doing it wrong. When it was discovered that they had an advantage of their own, it was suddenly the end of the world.

 

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

it’s about multiplayer being a total joke where players can exploit the dots to see you miles way without even using their radar. 

So you are in favour of the new system, then, since this particular issue has been improved significantly. It's far less of a joke now than it ever was.

But then, it doesn't actually make multiplayer a joke to begin with… you're just over-generalising from one particular use case and perspective.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Tippis

[JCTherik]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

A lot of us, certainly the majority, don’t want to be forced to choose between having an ugly game or being at a disadvantage.

Really?.

Me neither believe it or not, and yet somehow, it's been suggested that i turn on labels and drop my resolution if i don't like my disadvantage.

 

I wonder if you remember who suggested that to me.

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

Really?.

Me neither believe it or not, and yet somehow, it's been suggested that i turn on labels and drop my resolution if i don't like my disadvantage.

 

I wonder if you remember who suggested that to me.

Labels are ugly but they’re the only option in the game if you can’t handle realistic visibility. The spotting dots are nearly the same thing.  If you want a good looking realistic game you need to learn how to play that way. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by SharpeXB

[JCTherik]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

if you can’t handle realistic visibility

if the default visibility isn't realistic on my setup.

FTFY

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

if the default visibility isn't realistic on my setup.

FTFY

The problem is that you’re using VR and that can’t provide the resolution required for a sim like this. Although plenty of people here seem to be fine using it. On a monitor visibility is perfectly good and realistic with the dots disabled. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by SharpeXB

[JCTherik]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

The problem is that you’re using VR

VR is officially supported. I'm running one of the common headsets on default resolution. And your suggested solution to my poor default visibility on default resolution is unironically to make a choice between an ugly game or a crippling disadvantage, which is the exact same thing that you yourself complained about when you perceived that the same dilemma was forced on you merely few hours ago.

The fact that you keep repeating that this is due to low resolution shows that despite the two days long debate we all participated in, you still lack even a rudimentary understanding of the problem.

I don't see any point in continuing the debate for as long as you make zero effort to understand my comments.

 

I find it hilariously sad that you recommend the same kind of solution which you complain about when it's being recommended to you.

 

I honestly don't know if you have such a high lack of self awareness, if you're intentionally and knowingly abusing dishonest arguing strategies like gish gallop, or if you just straight up don't read my comments at all. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by JCTherik

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, JCTherik said:

VR is officially supported. I'm running one of the common headsets on default resolution.

Many people are able to play DCS in VR so I’m not sure what the problem is. What sort of settings are you running? But everyone knows the prime requisite for being a fighter pilot is having 20/20 eyesight and VR is very very far from replicating that. A monitor can simulate that by using the zoom view. There’s a zoom feature for VR too so perhaps you need to make use of that. VR might be supported in DCS but the resolution aspect makes this about the worst type of game for it along with all the performance problems. Poor performance makes running better settings harder.
At some point it’s worth realizing that the game won’t change for you so you need to change for the game. DCS is absolutely capable of providing realistic visibility. But you need to change your expectations and possibly hardware or settings. 

[Tippis]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

But everyone knows the prime requisite for being a fighter pilot is having 20/20 eyesight and VR is very very far from replicating that. A monitor can simulate that by using the zoom view.

You don't need zoom to simulate that on a monitor. In fact, just about any modern monitor is able to display that kind of visual acuity at the default FoV.

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

VR might be supported in DCS but the resolution aspect makes this about the worst type of game for it along with all the performance problems. Poor performance makes running better settings harder.

Again, this is you claiming things without any understanding or experience of the issue at hand. What you're saying here is simply not true. It's just something you assume based on… who-knows-what.

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

DCS is absolutely capable of providing realistic visibility. But you need to change your expectations and possibly hardware or settings. 

You understand that, by saying this, every single complaint you've had in this thread and every thread that preceded it, is null and void. According to you, you need to stop whinging.

[KoN]

Sorry gents I got a Ban so not been here . lol   lets just wait and  see what Ed bring to the table . Or some of us will be having heart attacks . lol  

At the moment I've turned off the new spotting in options try it ,  But for me  its still very hard to see contacts with my VR headset nearly at 4k Res . 

Roll on the phantom . Xmas time . 

[Joch1955]

So I play mostly against the AI, VR G2, PD=1, resolution 100%.

I have tried the option both On and Off. Personally, I like Off better. You can still spot ACs 10+ miles away, but the spot is smaller. and looks better The spot with On is too big IMHO.

Personally have no problem with options, players can choose what they want. This is a game after all.

[KoN]

On 12/12/2023 at 12:37 AM, JCTherik said:

And it will continue for years to come, since several years ago the community has decided to throw away scaling based on a bad experience with the then current implementation. 

The render distance of that dot needs to be reduced a lot, it shouldn't really exist past around 15 miles. For longer distances, an occasional sun glare should be the only way of spotting. At 10-15 miles, a dot would make sense, and in 3-10 miles the best solution would be a gentle scaling.

Obviously the scaling shouldn't be applied to zoomed objects seen through a targeting pod.

I really hope this spotting issue gets sorted once and for all , We cant keep chasing this issue anymore its been going on for years , the community needs a STABLE game engine a stable platform .

I think the way forward is Multiplayer but that has its problems too . We just need a stable platform to host from and everyone singing off same song sheet  .

My 2ct

Edited December 15, 2023 by KoN

[JCTherik]

7 hours ago, KoN said:

I think the way forward is Multiplayer

huh?

[Why485]

As of 2.9.2.49629 the issue of dots being visible when they are in front of clouds at extreme distances is still present. This bug is responsible for some of the "false positives" in people seeing dots at further distances than intended.

I've already reported this, but the thread has had no reaction from ED.

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Why485

[SharpeXB]

I hope they don’t consider this solved just because everyone now has the option to toggle either method. That just creates an exploit in the game.