T-38 Talon Trainer and Basic Flight School Missions

[PacFlyer23]

As a newbie that's spent months learning about flying using FC3 and the Su-25T then the A-10A, a very simple trainer and companion flight instructor would have been great. A T-38 (non combat version of the F-5) that had an AI instructor in the backseat to coach and instruct could be a way to grow the DCS community by getting true newbies to flight through the early stages of learning the game. There wouldn't need to be weapons training but just basic fight, navigation and aircraft handling training missions in english and other languages. 

[SharpeXB]

You don’t really need a trainer aircraft in DCS since all the real world reasons these exist (cost, safety) don’t apply to a game. You can “train” in any module. There are already tutorial missions with narration etc in the game for these. There are also some trainer jet modules such as the C-101 and Albatros. They might have more basic flight training missions included with them.

Edited October 26, 2023 by SharpeXB

[PacFlyer23]

Yes I realize this and that's what I've done. It I hadn't found CFrag's excellent flight school for the A-10A I probably would have given up as I was growing tied of crashing in the Su-25T in FC3 and being yelled at in Russian not understanding what was going on. I was really making a suggestion aimed at how to improve the entry into DCS for true flightless newbies like me. I do fly drones and have a copy of the US FAA's 1000 plus page "Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge" to look up certain concepts in detail and in english. Also watching hours of YouTube videos by some awesome DCS pilots helped too in understanding the basics of flying in DCS. For those that are highly skilled in flying in DCS - I am in awe of you btw - the entry into DCS probably doesn't seem as super intimidating and confusing as it does to a true beginner with zero background in general aviation concepts let alone those of high performance military aircraft. Don't get me wrong, I am now really enjoying DCS. I just thought from my experiences of the last five months there might be a better way to get the novice into it and enjoying it by having a true basic flight school module and non-combat trainer aircraft as an entryway option for those starting at square one of learning to fly.

[upyr1]

On 10/26/2023 at 7:17 AM, PacFlyer23 said:

As a newbie that's spent months learning about flying using FC3 and the Su-25T then the A-10A, a very simple trainer and companion flight instructor would have been great. A T-38 (non combat version of the F-5) that had an AI instructor in the backseat to coach and instruct could be a way to grow the DCS community by getting true newbies to flight through the early stages of learning the game. There wouldn't need to be weapons training but just basic fight, navigation and aircraft handling training missions in english and other languages. 

If AI is good enough to act as a trainer, then that would be a good idea for all the trainers we have. I'm not sure if I want the T-38 mainly due to the lack of combat options. I'd rather have the F-5F or an F-5A but if we could get a multipack with the whole family then yes the T-38 should be there. 

[SharpeXB]

Since DCS is a combat game I don’t know that most players come here with the intent of fully training at it like a real world pilot would. They come here to make stuff go boom and the realistic flying and operation things come later if that piques their interest. And that’s ok. So I’m not sure how marketable such training would be in addition to what’s already available in terms of manuals, videos and tutorial missions etc. Sim game flight training follows a different path than the real world simply because this is a game and not real. There are third parties who make AI flying school add-ons for the civy sims. Maybe they could be interested in adapting those to DCS but my guess is that there wouldn’t be enough interest in this player base. 
I hate to plug other games but one of those civy sims has a free demo and flight school stuff which if you want to simply learn that without the temptation to shoot things it’s worth a go. To broaden your horizons and such. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Tank50us]

On 10/26/2023 at 7:36 AM, SharpeXB said:

You don’t really need a trainer aircraft in DCS since all the real world reasons these exist (cost, safety) don’t apply to a game. You can “train” in any module. There are already tutorial missions with narration etc in the game for these. There are also some trainer jet modules such as the C-101 and Albatros. They might have more basic flight training missions included with them.

 

I'm not sure if they have it or not, but one of the key things in play is that none of them are USAF/USN.

As for one purpose of having a trainer aircraft is that the instructor can actually perform tasks currently impossible unless you're in the same pit. For example, demonstrating a proper final approach. My current project will be built around the idea that if someone is new to DCS, and flight sims in general, will start in a trainer to learn the basics before they go to their frame.

[cfrag]

13 hours ago, Tank50us said:

My current project will be built around the idea that if someone is new to DCS, and flight sims in general, will start in a trainer to learn the basics before they go to their frame.

While I like the idea, I think we could try and leverage the advantage of being virtual pilots. So while in the real world, people need to use trainers, I think we can do one better in a virtual environment, where trainer and student can occupy the same seat, and same plane. There is no need to first train in a trainer jet and then re-learn the same patterns in a new type when people could start in their 'real' type, and have the trainer take the reigns, set up everything, show how it is set up, and then allow the student to fly the airframe until the trainer takes over. This could even work with all current single-seaters in DCS, and would (IMHO) be significantly better than going the the classic route that we only go because of real-world restrictions that do not exist in a virtual world. And I'm not just talking about neophyte pilots: I'd love this feature so I could watch and have a friend of mine teach me the way she made her approaches on a carrier. Just sitting in the cockpit, watching her fly the aircraft, seeing what she's looking at, and listening to her explanation would have saved me days studying her Tracks (of which 50% were messed up for reasons unknown).  

Oh, and @PacFlyer23, thank you for your kind words wrt the Hog Flight School

[Evoman]

On 10/27/2023 at 12:39 PM, SharpeXB said:

 

 

 

 

"Since DCS is a combat game I don’t know that most players come here with the intent of fully training at it like a real world pilot would. They come here to make stuff go boom and the realistic flying and operation things come later if that piques their interest. "

There are several other arcade style flight combat games out there that far better attract those that just want to jump in and have fun and making stuff go boom. Most people that are attracted to DCS are a little more serious about military aviation than those of big AAA arcade war games.

"There are third parties who make AI flying school add-ons for the civy sims. Maybe they could be interested in adapting those to DCS but my guess is that there wouldn’t be enough interest in this player base."

For once you have a good idea and suggestion. Someone defiantly needs to develop something like a starter pack that comes with an AI flying school with a military training path in mind  add-on and a trainer aircraft of some sort. I am sure that a starter pack module would be far more attractive than the current Flamming Cliffs 3 for those with little experience that are seriously interested in military aviation.

"I hate to plug other games but one of those civy sims has a free demo and flight school stuff which if you want to simply learn that without the temptation to shoot things it’s worth a go. To broaden your horizons and such."

Although a good suggestion this would just turn off some if they have to spend money on something that isn't quite what they are looking for. In a way DCS is losing interest and future potential costumers by not offering an in house training program.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Evoman

[Evoman]

On 10/27/2023 at 11:27 AM, upyr1 said:

If AI is good enough to act as a trainer, then that would be a good idea for all the trainers we have. I'm not sure if I want the T-38 mainly due to the lack of combat options. I'd rather have the F-5F or an F-5A but if we could get a multipack with the whole family then yes the T-38 should be there. 

That is an excellent idea and concept that few have though of until this thread came up.Why not combine what is currently available like AI as the instructor, a basic F-5 as the trainer and and a flight training curriculum in military aviation all rolled up into a starter pack aimed at newbies that are genuinely interested in a military aviation.

[upyr1]

On 10/27/2023 at 11:39 AM, SharpeXB said:

There are third parties who make AI flying school add-ons for the civy sims. Maybe they could be interested in adapting those to DCS but my guess is that there wouldn’t be enough interest in this player base. 
I hate to plug other games but one of those civy sims has a free demo and flight school stuff which if you want to simply learn that without the temptation to shoot things it’s worth a go. To broaden your horizons and such. 

 

knowing the learning curve of DCS, the AI flight school might be nice to have as part of DCS core. The real issue though, is how hard would it be to adjust it for a combat sim? For example last night I was playing a 1 v1 guns only mission in the F-15C how far off would AI be from analyzing it and stating where I made a mistake?

1 hour ago, Evoman said:

For once you have a good idea and suggestion. Someone defiantly needs to develop something like a starter pack that comes with an AI flying school with a military training path in mind  add-on and a trainer aircraft of some sort. I am sure that a starter pack module would be far more attractive than the current Flamming Cliffs 3 for those with little experience that are seriously interested in military aviation.

 

If it can't be part of DCS core, then I would love to have an add on module that can be used with any of the existing modules. As  I said earlier the real question though is dealing with the combat aspect.  If we could have a virtual weapons instructor that would be awesome 

Edited October 29, 2023 by upyr1

[SharpeXB]

5 hours ago, cfrag said:

I'd love this feature so I could watch and have a friend of mine teach me the way she made her approaches on a carrier. Just sitting in the cockpit, watching her fly the aircraft, seeing what she's looking at, and listening to her explanation would have saved me days studying her Tracks (of which 50% were messed up for reasons unknown).

You can live stream each others screen in Discord. Works really well for this sort of thing.

1 hour ago, Evoman said:

Although a good suggestion this would just turn off some if they have to spend money on something that isn't quite what they are looking for.

The game actually has a free demo. It is kinda a way to expand your flight sim horizons in an environment where you aren’t tempted to shoot everything

[cfrag]

31 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You can live stream each others screen in Discord. Works really well for this sort of thing.

Probably a working solution, thank you for the idea -- it doesn't, unfortunately, work in VR that well (or at all, I don't yet have view of discord in VR). And we would not sit in the same cockpit as I would like to. I'm looking for an integrated solution. Since we already can fly each other's tracks, I assert (without any proof, of course) that it should be simple to stream the current track to the player who is not in control, and watch the person in control handling the aircraft with the ability to take control in an instant (of course I presume that both own the module). Well, we'll see if and what ED may can come up with. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by cfrag

[SharpeXB]

I don’t think lack of fully realistic flight instruction is an obstacle to new players in DCS. In fact it’s probably the opposite. Fully real instruction is probably over the heads of new players, flying through green hoops is enough. Maple Flag makes a great fully authentic set of training missions for the A-10C but they’re more suited to an advanced player, they’d be unapproachable for a newbie. You’re going to have to land at the right airspeed and at the right part of the runway and do the shutdown checklist in 30 seconds. And if you miss one part of that you fail. Green hoops are plenty for new players. 

[upyr1]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t think lack of fully realistic flight instruction is an obstacle to new players in DCS. In fact it’s probably the opposite. Fully real instruction is probably over the heads of new players, flying through green hoops is enough. Maple Flag makes a great fully authentic set of training missions for the A-10C but they’re more suited to an advanced player, they’d be unapproachable for a newbie. You’re going to have to land at the right airspeed and at the right part of the runway and do the shutdown checklist in 30 seconds. And if you miss one part of that you fail. Green hoops are plenty for new players. 

This is why I think the AI instructor would be a good idea. If possible it would be nice to have an AI instructor grade you instead of just flunk you. 

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

This is why I think the AI instructor would be a good idea. If possible it would be nice to have an AI instructor grade you instead of just flunk you. 

That’s what those AI flight schools things do. In Maple Flag you are told the criteria for pass/fail so it’s easy enough to evaluate yourself. I can’t recall but I think it will tell you if you rotate at the wrong speed, land too long etc. Maple Flag is great but it would be tough for beginners. Like you’ll do this long qualification flight for nighttime AAR. Then divert to a blind ILS landing at the end of which you still need to do the shutdown correct or fail. But I think it will tell you why or what you missed. 

[upyr1]

11 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s what those AI flight schools things do. In Maple Flag you are told the criteria for pass/fail so it’s easy enough to evaluate yourself. I can’t recall but I think it will tell you if you rotate at the wrong speed, land too long etc. Maple Flag is great but it would be tough for beginners. Like you’ll do this long qualification flight for nighttime AAR. Then divert to a blind ILS landing at the end of which you still need to do the shutdown correct or fail. But I think it will tell you why or what you missed. 

If I were programming the flight school module, there would be difficulty levels and the missions would be AI-generated and the only thing that would cause you to fail a mission would be if you crash. 

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, upyr1 said:

If I were programming the flight school module, there would be difficulty levels and the missions would be AI-generated and the only thing that would cause you to fail a mission would be if you crash. 

Campaign missions are pass/fail just due to their nature in the game. There’s the option now to skip or repeat them so much less worry about just making someone get stuck in them. 

[upyr1]

14 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Campaign missions are pass/fail just due to their nature in the game. There’s the option now to skip or repeat them so much less worry about just making someone get stuck in them. 

I know how things work now, but I'm not thinking about a simple campaign but a flight school module with an AI instructor 

[SharpeXB]

34 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

I know how things work now, but I'm not thinking about a simple campaign but a flight school module with an AI instructor 

I think such a campaign would be possible. That’s sorta what Maple Flag is without so much AI voiceover and such. But the game I think can provide enough data to script it. Like MF will have you do aerobatics and score you on technique, give you failures to respond do. It’s pretty good. But again probably not for beginners. 

[MAXsenna]

@PacFlyer23

Don't mind Sharpy. His MO is to oppose basically every wish.  

Maybe the T-38 will come at some point, as this wish comes up several times a year. That said it takes time en funds, quite a lot, so you can't really expect it to come for free. A much better option is to download the free T-45 community module, which also offers carrier ops. 

Cheers 

@SharpeXB

[Johnny Dioxin]

Maybe MilViz - or whatever they call themselves now - would consider this as they already have a great T-38 model and have had for many years.

 

However, anyone who just wants to learn about flying jets and how to navigate etc would do well to grab the C-101 and do the tutorial missions provided. Take a look at this thread to see how much it will teach the new pilot - starts with the Yak-52, moves on to the L-39 and then finally gets to the C-101EB followed by the -CC to put it all into action. You can use any of those that tickles your fancy:

 

https://forums.mudspike.com/t/ukraine-pilot-training/15642

 

C-101 training starts here:

 

https://forums.mudspike.com/t/ukraine-pilot-training/15642/65

Edited November 13, 2023 by Johnny Dioxin

[SharpeXB]

10 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Don't mind Sharpy. His MO is to oppose basically every wish.

Oh don’t worry about me. I’m not really against this one. My point was these things already exist or are possible within DCS now. Cheers

[MAXsenna]

Oh don’t worry about me. I’m not really against this one. My point was these things already exist or are possible within DCS now. Cheers

Righty!

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