investigating Radar priority Bug

[Lekaa]

By this time, ED is tired of my bug reporting  but i know they are working with the radar so it's now or in two weeks

When having more then 2-3 targets, the priority in the rader is buggy, I have a video, trackfile and some pictures bellow. 

All the targets are the same, Mig29S, all 4 at the same speed and all at the same altitude.

Maybe @Harker know something better but I think it's a bug. 

The sorting should be from me, 1,2,3,4 but now it's 2-3-4-1 and sometimes it changes but never , 1,2,3,4 like nearest should be 1 and furthest should be 4.

 

priority.trk

[MARLAN_]

> By this time, ED is tired of my bug reporting  but i know they are working with the radar so it's now or in two weeks 

Don't worry, I'm sure they're more annoyed from my reports, although I haven't posted too many lately, just waiting for things I reported to get fixed now.

As for your report, TWS should prioritize on TTG (time-to-go, aka time to intercept) not range. While range often plays a big factor in TTG its not always the case. Under this assumption only its possible the AI are so close together in speed & range that they fluctuate their TTG. I'd try testing AI with a little more variance in speed, e.g. mach 0.6, 0.7, 0.8, 0.9 and see what happens.

All that said, I'd logically expect (but can't prove) TWS would have some minimum variance built in, where it would be sorted based on range only, if the TTG variance is less than e.g. 5%, so tracks dont end up fluctuating all over the place (if that is actually what is happening here)

Edited October 30, 2023 by MARLAN_

[Lekaa]

Maybe if @BIGNEWYcould check the track and ask the team if possible? 

 

I tried multiple more times with different altitude and it seams if they are close to each other it will do the priority wrong with at least 1, even If it's a 2 ship

[Harker]

What I see here is the MC ranking hostiles higher, and then ranking by range.

The ranking by range part is wrong it should be TTG), and has been reported. The ranking hostiles higher than unknowns part, I'm not sure.

[Lord Vader]

Hi @Lekaaand everyone replying

We have an investigation going on internally regarding target ranking and your findings were added for further analysis.

Thanks. 

[Harker]

@Lord Vader I checked again. Ranking is based the threat the target represents. Regarding priorities, it goes:
 

1. ROE identification (Hostiles > Unknowns)
2. Inverse Time-To-Go (based on closing rate, ranks are determined based on the expected time to intercept)
3. Angle-Off-Boresight, for AOTs (targets closer to ownship boresight are ranked higher)

This order does not mean that a Hostile at 100 nmi will be ranked higher than an Unknown at 20 nmi. These elements represent weights in the ranking algorithm, but the main logic is "higher threat to ownship is ranked higher".

[Sindar]

There is a problem and there is no description in the manual. When switching to TWS mode, the radar automatically acquires targets. It's like I have AACQ turned on all the time. Captures targets at distances up to 100 nm with a radar range scale of 40 nm! Resetting the target does not work either with the "RESET" button on the MFD or with the "Undesignate" button on the RUS. When you click "Undesignate" it only switches targets, but does not reset the lock! Switched to the "A/G" mode and again to A/A, TWS, AUTO/MAN - in the MAN position. After 5 seconds, automatic target acquisition takes place again at a distance of 95 nm. Captures everything. Both allied and enemy targets. I don’t press TMS to the right, the hut is working, checked. I just can't manually lock onto targets or reset the lock. I checked it in a mission, in the editor and in a multiplayer game. The result is the same everywhere. What could be the reason? Help me please.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Sindar

[Tholozor]

47 minutes ago, Sindar said:

There is a problem and there is no description in the manual. When switching to TWS mode, the radar automatically acquires targets. It's like I have AACQ turned on all the time. Captures targets at distances up to 100 nm with a radar range scale of 40 nm! Resetting the target does not work either with the "RESET" button on the MFD or with the "Undesignate" button on the RUS. When you click "Undesignate" it only switches targets, but does not reset the lock! Switched to the "A/G" mode and again to A/A, TWS, AUTO/MAN - in the MAN position. After 5 seconds, automatic target acquisition takes place again at a distance of 95 nm. Captures everything. Both allied and enemy targets. I don’t press TMS to the right, the hut is working, checked. I just can't manually lock onto targets or reset the lock. I checked it in a mission, in the editor and in a multiplayer game. The result is the same everywhere. What could be the reason? Help me please.

 

This is working as intended. TWS will automatically assign the highest-ranked trackfile as the L&S (note that this is not a lock like STT, only a designation) unless a different trackfile has been designated as L&S. The NWS/Undesignate button on the stick will step the L&S through all valid trackfiles (this function is also present in RWS with LTWS enabled). The only way for L&S to not be present in TWS is for no valid trackfiles to exist.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Tholozor

[Harker]

This is working as intended. TWS will automatically assign the highest-ranked trackfile as the L&S (note that this is not a lock like STT, only a designation) unless a different trackfile has been designated as L&S. The NWS/Undesignate button on the stick will step the L&S through all valid trackfiles (this function is also present in RWS with LTWS enabled). The only way for L&S to not be present in TWS is for no valid trackfiles to exist.

There are different behaviors here, that can be correct depending on the OFP in question. The "an L&S must always exist" behavior is true for the software present on the F/A-18A, but not the F/A-18C (at least circa 2005).

According to info I've found, our Hornet's MC should automatically designate the highest ranked MSI trackfile as the L&S upon entering TWS.

But the official documentation is unclear on whether it should continue to do so, if that particular L&S is lost (as in, move the L&S to the next highest), while you are in TWS. I think that's the part discussed here.

Also, RSET in TWS should definitely remove the L&S completely, not reset it to the highest ranked trackfile. This is an important difference between our OFP, and the OFP present on -A models, and it should help with airspace management.

[Lekaa]

15 minutes ago, Harker said:

There are different behaviors here, that can be correct depending on the OFP in question. The "an L&S must always exist" behavior is true for the software present on the F/A-18A, but not the F/A-18C (at least circa 2005).

According to info I've found, our Hornet's MC should automatically designate the highest ranked MSI trackfile as the L&S upon entering TWS.

But the official documentation is unclear on whether it should continue to do so, if that particular L&S is lost (as in, move the L&S to the next highest), while you are in TWS. I think that's the part discussed here.

Also, RSET in TWS should definitely remove the L&S completely, not reset it to the highest ranked trackfile. This is an important difference between our OFP, and the OFP present on -A models, and it should help with airspace management.

Is the REST part as intended according to the understanding of ED? 

[Sindar]

2 часа назад, Lekaa сказал:

Is the REST part as intended according to the understanding of ED?

Now REST simply delays the image for 3-5 seconds. And we get the same track pattern. The mechanics are very interesting. Without pressing "TDC Depress" I can fire at 8 targets at once, selecting them "undesegnate". And if I choose at least one, I can only attack two!

3 часа назад, Harker сказал:

Also, RSET in TWS should definitely remove the L&S completely, not reset it to the highest ranked trackfile. This is an important difference between our OFP, and the OFP present on -A models, and it should help with airspace management.

thank you very much.

[Harker]

4 hours ago, Sindar said:

Now REST simply delays the image for 3-5 seconds. And we get the same track pattern. The mechanics are very interesting. Without pressing "TDC Depress" I can fire at 8 targets at once, selecting them "undesegnate". And if I choose at least one, I can only attack two!

RSET now resumes automatic ranking and moves the L&S to the trackfile with rank 1. So it does work as intended for now, since this was the intention when it was modeled. And until very recently, I also thought it was correct, I only discovered that particular detail very recently, after carefully reviewing some documents and discussing with an SME. I will report this as well.

As for the different targeting behavior, this is normal and correct. If you only have the L&S, you can step it down the ranks with NWS/Undesignate, but if you also designate a second trackfile as DT2, then you are limited between them. This is intended, as designating a DT2 means that the pilot wants to focus on a particular pair of targets, and ignore (or de-prioritize) the rest. This makes much more sense if you consider IRL tactics, where pilots have specific designated targets and only shoot those, at least at the beginning of a BVR engagement.

If you want to be able to designate more than two specific trackfiles, then you can either have only an L&S and step it, or you can use the TDC to designate a DT2 and then make it the L&S by using TDC Depress on it again (TDC Depress on DT2 makes it the L&S, without making the previous L&S the DT2 - if you want to keep both the L&S and DT2 and swap between them, make the DT2 and then use Undesignate).