Player|PLT, George|CPG, AGM-114K, and JTAC

[Captain Orso]

Is there a definitive set of step-by-step set of instructions to get the AI-CPG to fire Hellfires at an out-of-sight target being lazed by a FAC/JTAC?

There are so many servers with a drone flying over a target area and lazing priority targets, but I cannot figure out how to make any use of them. 

[JSpidey]

19 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

Is there a definitive set of step-by-step set of instructions to get the AI-CPG to fire Hellfires at an out-of-sight target being lazed by a FAC/JTAC?

There are so many servers with a drone flying over a target area and lazing priority targets, but I cannot figure out how to make any use of them. 

You can WAS hellfires and fire them yourself if you can't get George to 

[admiki]

If you know in which direction the targets are, you don't need George at all. WAS and fire

[Captain Orso]

I think you need pretty exact directing in which to fire, and entering an MGRS while flying is a bit of an issue, for me at least.

[Floyd1212]

Even if you enlist George’s help to rifle the missile, he won’t write down those coordinates for you, or indicate which direction you need to point the helo.

if the JTAC script supports it, you can have them “sparkle” the target while you observe with NVGs on.

To get George to send the missile, set him to LOAL, and whatever trajectory you need (LO/HI) to clear your obstruction.

[Captain Orso]

The CTLD JTAC "sparkles" all the time, but I don't think there's any way to see it during daylight hours.

[LorenLuke]

On 11/6/2023 at 5:30 AM, Captain Orso said:

The CTLD JTAC "sparkles" all the time, but I don't think there's any way to see it during daylight hours.

If you're in range (<10km), you can set your acquisition source to SKR on the 114Ks, and it should put the dotted cross over where the hellfire sees the ladder point as a sort of 'bootleg LST', no George or sparkle needed, if they're using the LD.

[Captain Orso]

Thanks for the reply LorenLuke. What is the ladder point?

[admiki]

15 hours ago, LorenLuke said:

If you're in range (<10km), you can set your acquisition source to SKR on the 114Ks, and it should put the dotted cross over where the hellfire sees the ladder point as a sort of 'bootleg LST', no George or sparkle needed, if they're using the LD.

Doesn't that negate an out-of-sight condition of the OP?

[LorenLuke]

15 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

Thanks for the reply LorenLuke. What is the ladder point?

Laser point. Didn't realise I mistyped it.

6 hours ago, admiki said:

Doesn't that negate an out-of-sight condition of the OP?

And yes it does, because reading is hard for me (i.e. I genuinely missed that point).

 

So, if you capture the laser point, you could potentially use it as an acquisition source, as said, and then fire it from a masked location.
But if you are trying to hit a target you don't have LOS on (which I'm an idiot and missed that part), you can attempt to enter a target point via the Keyboard Unit, OR, if you have a decently accurate idea of where it is on the map, you can use the CAQ as your acquisition source, and drop it as a point on the map, and launch it there.

The biggest thing to do is have a decent idea of where the target is, and where it's being lased from, well enough that you can see the laser point (obviously you can't se the laser point if the target itself is blocking it, and be in range so that the missile can hit the target. Other than that, you're basically sending it and praying.

[poochies]

just set your missile channel freq to say 1686 like the jtacs on 4ya servers use then get within 10 km of target area if they are marking lased target  with red smoke line up to red smoke so it's at your 12 oclock u usually can see red smoke and still stay low enough then set missile to HI loft then fire away rinse and repeat the only issue is all the numbskulls on 4ya that don't have the courtesy to be on srs comms and many people could be shooting at same target happens a lot 

[Captain Orso]

"Laser point"? I think you mean the lazed point, ie what the laser is targeting.

"Capture the 'laser' (sic.) point", I have no idea what that means, capturing it?

To use the CAQ, there must already be a point on the TSD. You cannot create a point on the TSD through CAQ, you can only pick one.

For a LOAL shot to find it's target, the target must be within a 15° cone.

[LorenLuke]

39 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

"Laser point"? I think you mean the lazed point, ie what the laser is targeting.

"Capture the 'laser' (sic.) point", I have no idea what that means, capturing it?

To use the CAQ, there must already be a point on the TSD. You cannot create a point on the TSD through CAQ, you can only pick one.

For a LOAL shot to find it's target, the target must be within a 15° cone.

Laser Point. Lased Point. The point the laser is pointing. Where the designation is. Where Laser-Guided Munitions steer to.

'Capture' means to acquire the point with any laser-sensitive equipment 'sees' the laser. A missile seeing the laser point, and LST seeing the laser point, etc.

You can drop a CAQ anywhere, not just on a point. See how he marks a road intersection in the video at timestamp (7:53).

And that's why I say to have a decent idea of where the target is. 15 degrees at 8 km is still about 2km wide. If that's 15 degrees to either side (instead of just 15 degrees total), you get double that; that's not a small area.

 

 

[Captain Orso]

Many thanks for all the info, LorenLuke.

I've been trying to implement and test it, but with limited success.

The CAQ works as you said and the video show, but I can find no use for it. The deviation between the TSD map and the F10 map are far too great and the scale of the TSD map is so poor. You would need a map at a scale of about 1-50,000 or even better, 1-25,000 and these appear to be about 1-100,000 at best. 

I'm going to have to set up a special mission, emulating what 4YA does, but without enemy CAP constantly buzzing around my head.

I'd rather not try to make any statements about viability, before that, because there have been too many variables and incidents.

One irritating thing I can say is, at dusk and afterwards you can easily see the JTAC's 'sparkling' of the target, but not through the HDU and NVS, but only through the naked eye - smh.

[LorenLuke]

 

5 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

The CAQ works as you said and the video show, but I can find no use for it. The deviation between the TSD map and the F10 map are far too great and the scale of the TSD map is so poor. You would need a map at a scale of about 1-50,000 or even better, 1-25,000 and these appear to be about 1-100,000 at best.

While it may not help necessarily in all instances (due to lack of any detailed talk-on by the JTAC), it's worth noting that there's a satellite map option (I don't remember exactly, but something like TSD -> Map -> one of the options on the left -> SAT) that's basically a greyscale top-down picture of the actual terrain that's available at range scales of 25 (might be 15) and under. If you have any way to correlate that map to what you see (e.g. 'Enemy 500 meters west of smoke' and you can identify the smoke point on your map), the CAQ point as your acquisition source may end up being more useful (alternatively an actual non-AI JTAC with proper talk on in conjunction with good map study might work as well).

Additionally, if you potentially have LOS you can drop the CAQ point in the area, slave the TADS to the CAQ, and then use the laser spot search to see if you can find the Designator point. Mark the target and then either fire from there or from cover. 

And this is without the FCR, which the above procedure might be Eben more useful (plus the pilot can do it too), of CAQ -> Slave FCR -> Sweep-sweep -> CAQ point over vehicle target matching description for JTAC target -> Hellfire away.

And lastly, if you have a bunch of HOTAS buttons and good head tracking, I would suggest maybe trying to bind all the buttons on your keyboard to the KU. About the only ones I really used normally are 'I' for the IHADSS and 1/2 to switch seats, and I just bound those to '`' and 'Shift+`', so I can type on the keyboard unit freely and enter MGRS grids from a JTAC easily, that way.

[Captain Orso]

In the end, I'm trying to compensate for the inability of George to 'write' down the target coordinates the JTAC is providing, enter them as a target point and making the target point available that the pilot can aim the aircraft, and thus the Hellfires, at it so that the LOAL HF have the best possible opportunity to find the target lased by the JTAC while in-flight.

At some point, the updates to the trim and SCAS have made it impossible for me to put the Apache into a stable hover into which I can apply Altitude and Attitude Hold while I enter/edit a waypoint for me to use as a target.

[LorenLuke]

22 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

In the end, I'm trying to compensate for the inability of George to 'write' down the target coordinates the JTAC is providing, enter them as a target point and making the target point available that the pilot can aim the aircraft, and thus the Hellfires, at it so that the LOAL HF have the best possible opportunity to find the target lased by the JTAC while in-flight.

At some point, the updates to the trim and SCAS have made it impossible for me to put the Apache into a stable hover into which I can apply Altitude and Attitude Hold while I enter/edit a waypoint for me to use as a target.

 

On 11/12/2023 at 1:56 PM, LorenLuke said:

And lastly, if you have a bunch of HOTAS buttons and good head tracking, I would suggest maybe trying to bind all the buttons on your keyboard to the KU. About the only ones I really used normally are 'I' for the IHADSS and 1/2 to switch seats, and I just bound those to '`' and 'Shift+`', so I can type on the keyboard unit freely and enter MGRS grids from a JTAC easily, that way.

This is in part why I made the above suggestion. There's only 3-4 OSB presses you would need to make (which can be done in less than 5 seconds in order), and then the rest can be done typing left-handed on the keyboard. For me, if I want to add a waypoint, I'd wait to send the 'ready to copy' message, and go TSD -> Point -> Add -> Ident. At this point, my right hand remains firmly on the cyclic, as I type into the KU with my left hand just using basic key presses: Enter (for basic Ident), then Enter again (since I'm not adding free text), right arrow a bunch to get to the end of the string, backspace a bunch to clear the line (except the first three values), and then ready to copy. You type them out as you hear them on your physical keyboard (since you'd have rebound all those), Enter to confirm the coords, and then enter again to use the default altitude, and now you have your new point ready and waiting for you to fly in and blow up the target.

[Captain Orso]

Hi LorenLuke,

I'm going to tell you a secret... I have had the KU setup on my keyboard for many months, BUT not permanently. I use a 'switch' modifier. I can very quickly enter an MGRS... while on the ground--I hate landing away from airfield/FARP. I cannot tell you how many times I got snagged on the ground by unseen detritus and crashed the rotor into the earth 

Anyway, I had a free toggle switch on my Thrustmaster Warthog Throttle--the one I use for lowering and raising the undercarriage on all other aircraft--setup as a 'modifier' 'switch'. So when flipped up, practically the entire keyboard is mapped to the KU, including the NUM block. Using the keyboard like this I can very quickly enter anything into the KU, especially MGRS coordinates, as 1. I can ten-finger blind-type, and 2. I have the number block mastered, because in my youth I worked as a cashier for several years, plus two years in accounting working mechanical calculators. The problem is, for ten-fingers you need... ten fingers, ie none for the cyclic, and for the number block I absolutely need my right hand, and flying the lefthanded cyclic is not pretty for me.

But you did make me realize that I'm already switching to the CPG seat to switch to 'weapon follow' view so I can see what the Hellfire is doing in-flight, so I might as well switch to CPG to enter the target coordinates. In fact I might as well setup CPG as far as I need to rifle off LOAL Hellfires and turn the nose to keep on target. *sigh* if George were not so ret... learning impaired, life could be so much easier.

Thank you

[NeedzWD40]

If you're given grid coordinates, you can use the TSD > SHOW > CURSOR INFO to display the current coordinates of where your cursor is pointing. This in conjunction with the CAQ can get you in the ballpark for a defilade/remote missile shot. You can manipulate virtually all TSD functions with the cursor, so this can be done without having to take your hands off the controls. It's not even necessary, however; it just gives you a cue on where to aim and an estimated impact timer. If you have some idea of the relative direction of the target(s), you can put the centerline over there and launch.

[Captain Orso]

Yeah, since the CTLD JTAC also tells you what type of unit is being lased, you can go to the F10 map with Scratchpad and check the coordinates against what JTAC is posting. I'm just thinking the whole time, there's gotta be a better way.

I think I need to write a plugin for Scratchpad to collect the data from the JTAC report, let me pick the JTAC unit and take the coordinates from that, then use those LAT/LON/MGRS to put down a marker of some sort I can put into the RTE and then DIR the point to put the home plate over it.

I'm also starting to set everything up the run the ship from CPG, but I've got a very long way to go with that. Also I really hate how slow and sloppy the AI Pilot is, like if we're passing over a small town and I want him to fly as low as possible up this avenue, you can forget it. Either live with the crappola way George flies or do it myself.