SharpeXB Posted November 12, 2023 Posted November 12, 2023 15 minutes ago, MoleUK said: While I would prefer it was done on the user side, I could live with it being a server side setting. But what you’d run into then is the likelihood that most servers would probably have that disabled, for the same reason they disable external views or the HUD-only view etc. That’s why having so many server options isn’t a great thing, you might not find those options or combination of options to your liking. 8 minutes ago, MoleUK said: Yep. While I might like having the option of real-time reflections in the canopy, I can already guess that I'd want to run with them disabled even if they weren't all that performance intensive. Which they probably would be. Some modules like the Spitfire do have real-time cockpit and canopy reflections. I don’t notice that those are a big performance hit. If they were there’d certainly be a graphics checkbox for them but there isn’t. Likely they don’t have much of a penalty. Maybe it’s enabled under another setting like SSLR, I don’t know. But it sure looks nice. 1 i9-14900KS | ASUS ROG MAXIMUS Z790 HERO | 64GB DDR5 5600MHz | iCUE H150i Liquid CPU Cooler | ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 4090 OC | Windows 11 Home | 2TB Samsung 980 PRO NVMe | Corsair RM1000x | LG 48GQ900-B 4K OLED Monitor | CH Fighterstick | Ch Pro Throttle | CH Pro Pedals | TrackIR 5
MoleUK Posted November 12, 2023 Author Posted November 12, 2023 9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said: But what you’d run into then is the likelihood that most servers would probably have that disabled, for the same reason they disable external views or the HUD-only view etc. That’s why having so many server options isn’t a great thing, you might not find those options or combination of options to your liking. Some modules like the Spitfire do have real-time cockpit and canopy reflections. I don’t notice that those are a big performance hit. If they were there’d certainly be a graphics checkbox for them but there isn’t. Likely they don’t have much of a penalty. Maybe it’s enabled under another setting like SSLR, I don’t know. But it sure looks nice. Yes, that's why I would prefer it was done on the user side than the server side. But if that's all I can get i'll take it. I'll have to check out the spit, any idea if they work in VR or not?
Tippis Posted November 12, 2023 Posted November 12, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, SharpeXB said: But what you’d run into then is the likelihood that most servers would probably have that disabled Excellent. Problem solved. Not that it was really a problem to begin with. 22 minutes ago, SharpeXB said: That’s why having so many server options isn’t a great thing, Actually, that's why mission options are a great thing (and that's what this would be — it wouldn't be a server option because those are used for very different things). And if playing at an equitable setup where your artificial advantage is removed isn't to your liking, then maybe you should stay away from PvP altogether… 22 minutes ago, SharpeXB said: I don’t notice that those are a big performance hit. But this isn't about you, now is it? You have already made clear that you wouldn't use this option anyway so your continued non-use is hardly relevant. The performance of your system doesn't dictate the performance on other people's systems. 22 minutes ago, SharpeXB said: If they were there’d certainly be a graphics checkbox for them but there isn’t. Right… ["views"] = { ["cockpit"] = { ["mirrors"] = false, ["reflections"] = false, ["avionics"] = 0, }, -- end of ["cockpit"] }, -- end of ["views"] Edited November 12, 2023 by Tippis 1 ❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧
SMH Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 On 11/11/2023 at 6:36 PM, MAXsenna said: Seriously?! What's your hard on for not let us SP players turn it off? Does it affect you personally in any way? They can never be real, and never be perfect. Even SharpeXB admits that, because you can't focus your eyes beyond those damn reflections and scratches! ("Somewhere in Time" we might of course). It's nice that if you have the hardware, you can move heads and arms to block the sun. But that's only in VR AFAIK. What's wrong with choices in SP and options to enforce in MP? Wow, that's rude. And you can already mod cockpit textures to do this and servers can already enforce "clean" textures. You already have your demand.
SMH Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, SharpeXB said: But again, such an option would be seen as an exploit in MP so it’s not such a simple solution. The fix for those canopies is just a “simple” texture plus not setting the cockpit shadows off. And enabling this new option you guys want would also be seen as an exploit in all those same MP servers where they don't want users who can't accept reproduction of real-life problems in their video game. You're not supposed to be able to see well out of your canopy at all lighting angles. (Though, again, I think they need to doublecheck their geometry because often those angles don't look right.) 9 hours ago, MoleUK said: If it's allowed then those who wish to use it will, and those who don't won't. It's personal preference, ultimately. ECW disabled IC for months just so people could use the spotting mod and this particular shader tweak. It was fine. I'd love to see the textures get fixed. It might never happen, at least for the older modules. In the meantime, it's two lines in a shader file. That's all that would require an on/off toggle. This isn't about me, this is about you having an advantage over me in a MP server. And as everyone is pointing out, you already can mod your sim to do this and, yes, be rightfully banned from most serious MP servers because of it, because I wish for you to have to deal with all the same real-world disadvantages that I do. And I want all of them. (We already model death for example. Who wants that? Yet it wouldn't be a fair or accurate sim without it.) Edited November 13, 2023 by SMH 1
SMH Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 6 hours ago, Tippis said: Nah. If people want to be able to see out of the cockpit, that's not something the server needs to be bothered about. It is something the other players on that server need to be bothered about, because you now have an unfair and unrealistic advantage. (Same as VR users who can put their heads out of the canopies do, that needs to be fixed ASAP as well.)
Tippis Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 3 hours ago, SMH said: It is something the other players on that server need to be bothered about, because you now have an unfair and unrealistic advantage. It's the other way, really. People who aren't affected already have that advantage — this kind of option would just bring the rest into parity. And more to the point, since it's an option, you can freely choose to have the same perceived advantage if it feels so threatening. It is neither unfair, nor is it unrealistic since looking past these kinds of close-range defects is something the brain is fully capable of. It's the current situation that is unrealistic. 3 hours ago, SMH said: And enabling this new option you guys want would also be seen as an exploit in all those same MP servers where they don't want users who can't accept reproduction of real-life problems in their video game If the option was properly exposed, it quite literally, objectively, couldn't be an exploit. 2 ❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧
cfrag Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 5 hours ago, SMH said: I wish for you to have to deal with all the same real-world disadvantages that I do It's interesting that you see nothing wrong with above statement. The world, as it seems, must revolve around your point of view, and everyone else should acquiesce to your demands - no matter how tiny of a sliver of opinion space you occupy. Why not reverse it? I demand that you play the way I do. You are flying a German plane? You must study all literature in German. Same for the Russian birds: Cyrillic docs only. When flying Normandy, speak in German to your team over the radio - or in French. When in Caucasus, speak Russian when flying Red. An no English cockpits for the Migs, Sharks, Hinds, Mirages etc. "Same real-world disadvantages". It would be preposterous, completely unnecessary, and arbitrarily so. And that is how I read your demands. 5 hours ago, SMH said: You're not supposed to be able to see well out of your canopy at all lighting angles. Like this? It is a real problem and it helps if people were less blasé about other people's issues. This was fixed with a tiny change to the glass renderer. And now we have the faction of perpetually self-victimizing "hardcore" PvP players who have a problem with losing yell that familiar 'exploit, cheater!' mantra. 5 hours ago, SMH said: And I want all of them. (We already model death for example. No we don't. If we did, you would not be able to fly again. Ever. DCS is a game. The hallmarks of a game are that it discards real-world tedium and makes the experience enjoyable without it's drawbacks while leaving some options. If you tend towards masochism, by all means, have at it. But please don't think that you are rightfully entitled to force everyone else down your particular choice, nor that they would enjoy it. 4
MAXsenna Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 7 hours ago, SMH said: Wow, that's rude. Rude? You ain't seen nothing yet love! Isn't it pretty rude not to read the posts and behave as some tiny dictators forcing broken limitations on single players that have no interest in multiplayer? Seems to me that quite a few of the MP crowd takes offence that SP actually exists. What's wrong with choice? Please explain that to me! Enforce it all you want in MP. 7 hours ago, SMH said: And you can already mod cockpit textures to do this and servers can already enforce "clean" textures. You already have your demand. Sigh... Thats a workaround. Not an option. 7 hours ago, SMH said: This isn't about me, If you say so. 7 hours ago, SMH said: And as everyone is pointing out, Who's "everyone"? 7 hours ago, SMH said: because I wish for you to have to deal with all the same real-world disadvantages that I do. Oh, I the irony! What do you do when you have reflections while driving your car? Accept them as they are because it's the same for all, or do you mod your car? I guess you just shift your focus which we can't do on a computer. You get my drift, hopefully you and Sharpy will have some fun together.
SMH Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 Ease up on the straw-man arguments there please, guys. Why can servers restrict features? Because those features can be used as exploits. And having a perfectly transparent canopy when other players don't is an exploit. It is not the same as expecting the enemy to fly the same aircraft as me in any way. It's expecting the enemy (and also my friends) to fly with the same realistic limitations that I do, so they don't have an unfair advantage over me (or over anyone) just because they'd rather be playing a video game than a high-realism sim. And, you're forcing me to repeat myself, you already can mod your aircraft cockpit textures, as well as that lua edit mentioned above, to make your cockpit canopies fully transparent. You just (thankfully) won't be able to join servers that have IC check enabled, because you're using the mod as an exploit to make the sim easier for you than it is for those who want to fly realistically. (Same as if you modded textures to make all enemy planes orange day-glo.) If you had your option (and then, necessarily, also two more options to enforce it on mission files and servers) you'd be in the exact same situation as server operators who don't allow exploits like external view to be enabled would surely also disable fully-transparent canopies. I also don't understand this claim that it doesn't affect everyone equally. How doesn't it? You think some can see through the canopy easier than others? Who? How? (And, yes, all aircraft don't have the better, "live" reflections yet. But that was my original point. They really should be done by now and that is what we really need, as well as some attention to the geometry and textures which, yes, should probably be tweaked on some aircraft because the effect is a little strong in them.) (And I'm not further engaging with MAXsenna for reasons that should be obvious.)
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted November 13, 2023 ED Team Posted November 13, 2023 Folks you are allowed to have opinions different from each other, but please dont make it personal to start unnecessary arguments. Please ensure you have read the rules at the top of the forum. thanks 3 1 Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, PIMAX Crystal
SMH Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, cfrag said: Like this? It is a real problem and it helps if people were less blasé about other people's issues. This was fixed with a tiny change to the glass renderer. And now we have the faction of perpetually self-victimizing "hardcore" PvP players who have a problem with losing yell that familiar 'exploit, cheater!' mantra. No we don't. If we did, you would not be able to fly again. Ever. DCS is a game. The hallmarks of a game are that it discards real-world tedium and makes the experience enjoyable without it's drawbacks while leaving some options. If you tend towards masochism, by all means, have at it. But please don't think that you are rightfully entitled to force everyone else down your particular choice, nor that they would enjoy it. I see nothing wrong with your photograph (other than it's taken when the screen is darkened because you have the menu up - try Pause next time). And you don't seem to understand what the word "model" means. Yes, DCS does model death, and of course that doesn't actually kill you any more than modeling flight actually makes you fly out of your chair and go somewhere else. What you call "masochism" I call "realism" and it's the entire reason why I fly this sim and no others. And, again, you're not forced at all. But what you're trying to do is force ED to add three new options as well as make sure those options work in every single aircraft. On the other hand, all I'm asking them to do is finish the new reflection work for all aircraft, and consider cleaning it up some in aircraft where it's a bit too much and/or the mapping coordinate geometry looks wrong. Which is work they had to do anyway. I'm just voting for them completing the work they promised, rather than making and implementing new options (that, again, will require changes to every aircraft) just to hide the fact that this work is still incomplete. Where would you rather see their time and our money spent? Particularly given that you can just make a quick edit to a single script file and have it your way right now. (And if you don't care about multi-player then that's even better, as the IC system won't be a problem for you then.) Edited November 13, 2023 by SMH
Tippis Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 18 minutes ago, SMH said: Why can servers restrict features? Because those features can be used as exploits. No. For one, servers can only restrict a select few things: client integrity, ping, trial accounts, and data exports. Of those, at most the client integrity opens up for actual exploitation. For another, the things that can be restricted in missions are not exploits by very definition. They're game features that you may want to equalise among players for whatever reason — challenge perhaps, or in some cases the lack thereof, since it varies from setting to setting — but playing the game as designed is never an exploit. 21 minutes ago, SMH said: And having a perfectly transparent canopy when other players don't is an exploit Funnily enough, introducing this option would make that exploit go away, not introduce it. The imbalance you're trying to protect against is the one that already exists. By letting everyone see clearly see their cockpits, you arrive at an equitable situation that can't be had at the moment without modding that breaks IC and which is therefore far closer to actual exploitation than having a legit option could ever be. If you want to fly with realistic limitations, wouldn't it be fair to also allow your opponent to do so? 24 minutes ago, SMH said: I also don't understand this claim that it doesn't affect everyone equally. How doesn't it? Some can already see cleanly through their cockpit glass. They would not be affected by letting everyone else do that as well… well, aside from having their unfair advantage be removed, but that's a way of being affected that is positive for everyone involved as well as the game as a whole. 4 minutes ago, SMH said: But what you're trying to do is force ED to add three new options as well as make sure those options work in every single aircraft. This is already the case. What is being asked here is for that option to be exposed in the UI. 1 ❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧
SMH Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Tippis said: No. For one, servers can only restrict a select few things: client integrity, ping, trial accounts, and data exports. Of those, at most the client integrity opens up for actual exploitation. For another, the things that can be restricted in missions are not exploits by very definition. They're game features that you may want to equalise among players for whatever reason — challenge perhaps, or in some cases the lack thereof, since it varies from setting to setting — but playing the game as designed is never an exploit. Funnily enough, introducing this option would make that exploit go away, not introduce it. The imbalance you're trying to protect against is the one that already exists. By letting everyone see clearly see their cockpits, you arrive at an equitable situation that can't be had at the moment without modding that breaks IC and which is therefore far closer to actual exploitation than having a legit option could ever be. If you want to fly with realistic limitations, wouldn't it be fair to also allow your opponent to do so? Some can already see cleanly through their cockpit glass. They would not be affected by letting everyone else do that as well… well, aside from having their unfair advantage be removed, but that's a way of being affected that is positive for everyone involved as well as the game as a whole. This is already the case. What is being asked here is for that option to be exposed in the UI. 1. No, that's incorrect. Servers (through their own settings as well as the settings in the mission file the server is serving) can restrict external views, map modes, "cheats" like padlock, easy flight and the ability to turn off the cockpit rendering, and lots more. If you add an option to have transparent canopies they'll absolutely need to add the ability to restrict/enforce that in the Mission editor as well. (This also means it needs to be a "live" option that can change on the fly, where the existing lua edit isn't one, it's loaded at start-time and stays stuck how it is for your entire session, so don't assume that work is done and tested for all planes. Do you ever join a mission and are told, "sorry, you need to change your options and restart the sim"? No, because those options are enforced in real time when you join the mission/server. So, I wouldn't necessarily assume it's as easy as adding a couple of checkboxes to the settings and ME interfaces.) 2. Only after they had added three new settings and made every single aircraft obey those new settings. (And, again, you could be done with this now if you'd just make that simple lua edit.) 3.Who can see cleanly through their glass and why? Are you suggesting we see different things? We're not supposed to. (Excepting some obvious differences re: VR and the number of eyes we have. And as I've already pointed out, the ability for VR users to put their PoV outside the canopy glass really needs to be fixed because that is an unfair exploit as well). 4. ...and also be added to the restriction/enforcement list in the ME and server interfaces. But, yes, maybe you're right that aircraft already know how to implement that lua-option, but again, is it a live option? Probably not! All I'm suggesting is that a better place for their development effort to go is into getting the new reflections finished for all aircraft, and doing some clean-up work on the few aircraft where the effect is over-done or wrong looking. And add reflections on the HUD glass too, as it should obviously have them. (And they won't be much as the HUD glass is angled down towards the black dash. Mostly we should only see the light from the projector lens reflected in them, as is already "painted on" in many aircraft, but that looks bad when all the other glass reflections now move with your PoV except that one.) Edited November 13, 2023 by SMH
Tippis Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 2 hours ago, SMH said: 1. No, that's incorrect. No. Of your two images, only one is of server settings. The other is the mission setting and thankfully, the bug where “non-enforce” settings would be enforced anyway by what the mission-maker had set has been fixed. And even when that bug was in play, it was still mission settings, just not ones controlled by what was set in the mission editor but what was in the options.lua file that was (horribly nonsensically) packaged in with it, and which was a copy of the mission-maker's local setting. The server's setting didn't really matter because those would only apply to the server's presence in the game world and would be overwritten by the mission settings anyway. I was being very specific about this for a reason. …and let's not even get into the logic mess of the “ignore forced settings” setting they've added. 2 hours ago, SMH said: Do you ever join a mission and are told, "sorry, you need to change your options and restart the sim"? No, because those options are enforced in real time when you join the mission/server. So, I wouldn't necessarily assume it's as easy as adding a couple of checkboxes to the settings and ME interfaces.) This is an integrated and coherent system: if it's a setting that enforceable on the mission status, then it's what gets fed to — and enforced by (or not) — the client as they load into that mission. So adding it would be pretty simple as long as it is saved with all the other settings… and it would be. But that's if it even needs to get enforced to begin with, which is highly questionable since it's a graphics option, and there's not really any restrictions on those for a very good reason. Since the base advantage would be with the ones who don't need that setting, any enforcement would mean you're straddling people with an unfair advantage in a situation where you most likely want the opposite effect. Well, unless you really crave an unfair playing field and then we're having a very different discussion. You only need an option to enforce bad vision on some players if your intent is to forcibly maintain an unfair unfair advantage for others. 2 hours ago, SMH said: 3.Who can see cleanly through their glass and why? Are you suggesting we see different things? We're not supposed to. Different aircraft see different thing, and those differences are not inherent in the airframes but in the misguided (or just badly implemented) aesthetic preferences of the module maker. If player fairness was the end goal, those who got saddled by arbitrarily bad views because of their airframe of choice should be allowed to be on par with those who aren't. “Just don't fly the plane” isn't a really valid solution here, and I can already see someone readying that one coming a mile away — it just acknowledges and reinforces that there's a problem that shouldn't really be there to begin with. If you pick an underperforming plane for your own amusement or interest, that's one thing, but “sorry, ground crew used 40-grit sandpaper to clean the windows” shouldn't be part of it. Well, unless you really want to in case you could turn that on as well. But that extra handicap should be your choice, not something the mission forces on you because it wants to favour other people. 2 hours ago, SMH said: But, yes, maybe you're right that aircraft already know how to implement that lua-option, but again, is it a live option? None of the enforceable options are really live. Hell up until very recently, none of the options were even not enforceable (but that was a bug, as mentioned). They just sit behind different levels of settings and control layers and they're applied when you load the mission. For the client, it's just about all all in gameplay options page (and special page for some stuff hidden in the flight setup controls for… reasons), and I can't off the top of my had recall any of the mission-enforcable options that can be changed without exiting all the way back out and go to the full preferences menu. Maybe labels (and not as in you can turn them on or off, but as in you can change the type)? But those will in most cases be enforced regardless. 1 ❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧
SMH Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 You're just repeating patent falsehoods now so I'm not going to get drawn further into this with you.
Tippis Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, SMH said: You're just repeating patent falsehoods now …such as? I suppose the base assumption that PvPers want a fair fight might not be as grounded in reality as one would wish, but aside from that? Edited November 13, 2023 by Tippis 1 ❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧
SharpeXB Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 6 hours ago, cfrag said: Like this? You know this effect is a result of your graphic settings and not something everyone else sees. It’s a product of having the shadows turned off (set to Flat Only). 2 i9-14900KS | ASUS ROG MAXIMUS Z790 HERO | 64GB DDR5 5600MHz | iCUE H150i Liquid CPU Cooler | ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 4090 OC | Windows 11 Home | 2TB Samsung 980 PRO NVMe | Corsair RM1000x | LG 48GQ900-B 4K OLED Monitor | CH Fighterstick | Ch Pro Throttle | CH Pro Pedals | TrackIR 5
Tippis Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 Just now, SharpeXB said: You know this effect is a result of your graphic settings and not something everyone else sees. So it makes all the sense in the world to have a graphics setting that gets rid of that bad effect. 2 ❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧
cfrag Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 50 minutes ago, SharpeXB said: You know this effect is a result of your graphic settings That is exactly my point. It's a longstanding (it's been known for years) bug, caused by a legitimate user choice in shadows (set to 0 -- off, or 1 -- flat only, other settings > 1 do not cause the bug to surface). We had an easy fix; now we do not until ED provides one. IMHO, bugs should be corrected, especially egregious ones - it may be difficult for people who aren't affected by them to sympathize, I know. 2
Roostyla Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 Thanks for posting this Mole and highlighting something that got culled when the spotting 'mod' was brought the forefront of everyone's minds. The ban hammer came down heavy and locked down a bunch of mods that a lot of us used in the community . I wont go into that to keep focus on one thing at a time. I'd love to see it come back especially for the Mi-8 which you have highlighted which suffers awfully from dodgy shading / reflections. Hopefully it can be fixed for everyone or a option we can tick as its quite inconsistent module to module right now. 2
MoleUK Posted September 26, 2024 Author Posted September 26, 2024 It would be nice to see this addressed eventually. Unfortunately the new slider for canopies doesn't seem to have any affect currently. 1
cfrag Posted September 27, 2024 Posted September 27, 2024 8 hours ago, MoleUK said: It would be nice to see this addressed eventually. @BIGNEWY please? Perhaps an update when we can expect the slider (which is a wonderful addition, thank you!) for reflection is integrated into the game (i.e. has an effect)? 1
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