Jump to content

Kh-25ML does not see the laser mark at operating distances and does not begin to gain altitude after launch

Altair89

By Altair89
in Bugs and Problems

 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Altair89 changed the title to Kh-25ML does not see the laser mark at operating distances and does not begin to gain altitude after launch
Solo_Turk

Solo_Turk

Posted
Posted

he did in track file. If you change launch autorization to manual, you can make +10km shot. the missile may not gain altitude if you are close enough(in this track, you were about 8 ). the missile tracked the laser and hit the target i couldn't get the problem actually.

  • Thanks 1
Altair89

Altair89

Posted
  • Author
Posted
1 час назад, Solo_Turk сказал:

he did in track file. If you change launch autorization to manual, you can make +10km shot. the missile may not gain altitude if you are close enough(in this track, you were about 8 ). the missile tracked the laser and hit the target i couldn't get the problem actually.

The problem is that the rocket does not gain altitude and just flies straight for a while, then suddenly finds the target and turns towards it

  • 7 months later...
Mexmarsouin

Mexmarsouin

Posted
Posted

Hi, problem still not solved, and even getting worse : the missile pitch down and hit the ground.

Any news about the Kh-25ML ? Could be great to have it back in the Ka-50, for now, it's better to take Vikhr because KH-25 has almost the same range in the current state.

Flappie

Flappie

Posted
Posted
On 12/1/2023 at 6:24 AM, PawlaczGMD said:

Make sure laser is on, and that you have switched the laser designator to the LEFT position (guarded toggle switch under front left panel). For some reason it needs this laser mode to track.

image.png

  • Like 1

---

Mexmarsouin

Mexmarsouin

Posted
Posted (edited)

Hi,

I did exactly what you are discribing : putting the laser to the left position (Stand By in English cockpit or "ЛДП" in russian).
However, the missile does not pop up : it pitches down and hit the ground.

I've just made a video, can post it on Youtube if you want, but i guarantee the missile pitches down, not up.

Edited by Mexmarsouin
Mexmarsouin

Mexmarsouin

Posted
Posted (edited)

Thanks for the .trk, it shows exactly what i mean : the missile does not pitch up, it pitches down.

Try shooting it at around 90 meters AGL, the missile will crash into the ground.

Maybe I'm wrong thinking it should pitch his nose up, but that's what it did before.
 

Here some videos to showcase (not from me) :

1 year ago (at 2:40) : 

 5 years ago (at 6:03) :

 

Nowadays, your track shows the missile has a completly different behaviour, which, i feel, is a bug because it's not what you mentioned here (01 december 2023) :

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/newsletters/bb8fb79fd53885f0dd522d1aabb2a37d/

Edited by Mexmarsouin
Flappie

Flappie

Posted
Posted

When you said that the missile would hit the ground, I thought you implied that the missile was always missing its target, which is not the issue here.

Before bothering devs, I want to make sure that the recent change was not made on purpose. I looked for some footage of real Kh-25ML (at least, that's what the titles say, but in the first video, it really looks like the Kh-25ML double exhaust flame):

This page tells us some things about the Kh-25ML: https://en.missilery.info/missile/x25ml

Quote

The aim of the X-25ML missile is based on the proportional approach method. The control parameter is the angular rate of change in the target sighting line direction. The control signal is formed at the output of the laser target tracking coordinator, having a field of view angle - 2o, the maximum angle of target bearing - 30o. The control system also stabilises the missile in pitch, heading and roll.

The target can be illuminated by an onboard or ground target designation station. In order to ensure target illumination and retention of the laser beam with the required accuracy, the Klen-PS illumination and rangefinder station as well as two modifications of the Kaira and Kaira-K laser and television sighting systems were created. In the designs of the illumination station and GSN there were implemented technical solutions excluding the influence of laser radiation from other aircraft in the group. The pilot's task is only to detect and mark the affected object on the TU-indicator. An automatic tracking system ensures accurate retention of the illumination beam on the target. A complex of opto-electronic devices from the illumination station and SOS provides guidance of missiles with an error of 5-7 m at the limiting ranges of fire. The missile makes a "slide" on the final part of the trajectory.

The described "slide" looks like what we see in the first video, and in my track.

---

  • 5 weeks later...
Hobel

Hobel

Posted
Posted (edited)
Am 19.7.2024 um 20:13 schrieb Flappie:

When you said that the missile would hit the ground, I thought you implied that the missile was always missing its target, which is not the issue here.

Before bothering devs, I want to make sure that the recent change was not made on purpose. I looked for some footage of real Kh-25ML (at least, that's what the titles say, but in the first video, it really looks like the Kh-25ML double exhaust flame):

This page tells us some things about the Kh-25ML: https://en.missilery.info/missile/x25ml

The described "slide" looks like what we see in the first video, and in my track.

To be fair the shots are nose down and over 500m alt.

In the Ed Newsletter it says to the other missile, below 500m alt and the missile makes a loft.

In these pictures you can see su25 lvl Flight And below 500m And the kh-25 seems to initiate a loft.


 

ukrainian-su-25-launching-a-kh-25ml-summer-2022-v0-fzn07d0kz98a1.jpg

ukrainian-su-25-launching-a-kh-25ml-summer-2022-v0-r0h3c7ckz98a1.jpg
 

EDIT: okay i tested something else, in DCS the missle also makes a loft but only when it tracks the laser.

 with the DCS Su25, the missle drops  after the start and only when the Missile sees the laser does the loft occur, but the ILR pictures show that the missle even initiates a loft from the rail

The Seeker has a range of 8km but even within this range the KH25 only goes into the loft after flying ~300m

 

Edited by Hobel
  • Thanks 1
Kappa-131st

Kappa-131st

Posted
Posted (edited)

True, Kh-25ML need to be shot with a loft.
(without loft, they often drop... Even with loft, they don't have a perfect accurency)

And there is another issue with Budylasing : You can not make budylasing for many KA-50 at the same time.

Ex : There is a big ship with CIWS you want to hit.
To maximise the chance to hit, one KA-50 make the lasing of the target, and two other KA-50 make the shots (with one or both of there Kh-25ML)
The objective is to overwhelm ennemies's CIWS with too many missiles.

With my squadron (06MHR), we make numerous tests : Buddylasing work perfectly for one budy but canot work for many KA-50 who shots.

We have test : 

  • 1 KA-50 lasing, 1 KA-50 firering 1 KH-25ML => Ok, 1 splash
  • 1 KA-50 lasing, 1 KA-50 firering 2 KH-25ML => Ok, 2 splash
  • 1 KA-50 lasing, 2 KA-50 firering 1 KH-25ML per Kamov => budylasing work for only one Kamov. 1 splash, 1 drop
  • 1 KA-50 lasing, 2 KA-50 firering 2 KH-25ML per Kamov => budylasing work for only one Kamov. 2 spash from one KA-50, 2 drop from the other Kamov

PS : Of course, for our test, we are all in the same laser code position, and of course, with laser in designation mode for the one who lase, and laser off for the others.
We have make a whole evening of tests, and we conclued that budylasing seam to not working with many Kamov who shots.

We also try to make budylasing between KA-50 and SU-25T.
Does not work at all 😞 It is a pitty because it will be very interesting to have sinergy between red coalliton aricraft, especially for aircraft with the same armament and similar technologies like the KA-50 and SU-25T

 

--------------------------------------------------------

 

I tried to understand which laser codes were used by the Kamovs (we have 3 laser positions to adjust without knowing which laser code is used).

For this, I tried to "simulate" budylasing using the "Spot.createLaser" function which allows you to generate a laser by configuring the code.
https://wiki.hoggitworld.com/view/DCS_func_createLaser
Thanks to this function, I created / deleted laser codes ranging from laser code 1000 to 2000 (by incrementing the laser by 1 every second)

I put myself on arming KH-25ML & laser off and prey for my seeker to react to one of the codes laser, but it didn't work...
I deduce that the Kamov's laser codes are not configured like the others laser code and are does not work for budylasing with another aircraft (like the Su-25) or with a laser designatior carried out by JTAC or created with LUA's function.

 

Edited by Kappa-131st
Hobel

Hobel

Posted
Posted
vor 20 Stunden schrieb Kappa-131st:

True, Kh-25ML need to be shot with a loft.
(without loft, they often drop... Even with loft, they don't have a perfect accurency)

And there is another issue with Budylasing : You can not make budylasing for many KA-50 at the same time.

Ex : There is a big ship with CIWS you want to hit.
To maximise the chance to hit, one KA-50 make the lasing of the target, and two other KA-50 make the shots (with one or both of there Kh-25ML)
The objective is to overwhelm ennemies's CIWS with too many missiles.

With my squadron (06MHR), we make numerous tests : Buddylasing work perfectly for one budy but canot work for many KA-50 who shots.

We have test : 

  • 1 KA-50 lasing, 1 KA-50 firering 1 KH-25ML => Ok, 1 splash
  • 1 KA-50 lasing, 1 KA-50 firering 2 KH-25ML => Ok, 2 splash
  • 1 KA-50 lasing, 2 KA-50 firering 1 KH-25ML per Kamov => budylasing work for only one Kamov. 1 splash, 1 drop
  • 1 KA-50 lasing, 2 KA-50 firering 2 KH-25ML per Kamov => budylasing work for only one Kamov. 2 spash from one KA-50, 2 drop from the other Kamov

PS : Of course, for our test, we are all in the same laser code position, and of course, with laser in designation mode for the one who lase, and laser off for the others.
We have make a whole evening of tests, and we conclued that budylasing seam to not working with many Kamov who shots.

We also try to make budylasing between KA-50 and SU-25T.
Does not work at all 😞 It is a pitty because it will be very interesting to have sinergy between red coalliton aricraft, especially for aircraft with the same armament and similar technologies like the KA-50 and SU-25T

 

--------------------------------------------------------

 

I tried to understand which laser codes were used by the Kamovs (we have 3 laser positions to adjust without knowing which laser code is used).

For this, I tried to "simulate" budylasing using the "Spot.createLaser" function which allows you to generate a laser by configuring the code.
https://wiki.hoggitworld.com/view/DCS_func_createLaser
Thanks to this function, I created / deleted laser codes ranging from laser code 1000 to 2000 (by incrementing the laser by 1 every second)

I put myself on arming KH-25ML & laser off and prey for my seeker to react to one of the codes laser, but it didn't work...
I deduce that the Kamov's laser codes are not configured like the others laser code and are does not work for budylasing with another aircraft (like the Su-25) or with a laser designatior carried out by JTAC or created with LUA's function.

 

 

Would you upload tacview or tracks from the tests?

Kappa-131st

Kappa-131st

Posted
Posted (edited)

I did another evening of tests with 3 allies, and the result is quite irregular: On several passes, the laser guided well all the missiles of my buddies, and on several others, the laser only guided a few missiles (often of the same device)...

On the other hand, we tried different tests (at different ranges), and here are some of the returns that I observed: 

  • When the missile is fired at its range of 8 km, the hit rate is relatively good, and the countdown on the HUD goes from 30 to 0, where the laser cooling turns on for 20 seconds. Observation: Barely fired, the missile guides itself towards the target
  • When the missile is fired at 9 km with a slight loft, the hit rate is quite good too. The missile will go straight for a few seconds before the guidance is activated, around 8 km. It will then tend to rise to fall back on the target.
  • At 10 km, the missile must be fired in loft, and its hit rate drops drastically and depends a lot on altitude. You have to wait a good 4 seconds during which the missiles go straight before the guidance is activated (if it is activated, because the failure rate is quite high). The failure rate can also be due to the cooling of the laser which can be activated before the missile hits the target (which very often happens when the missile is fired more than 10 km away). But what is interesting is that the laser countdown at the time of lock no longer starts from 30 sec to go to 0, but starts from 60 sec, and somewhere around 30-40 sec countdown, the cooling starts. active for 20 seconds (interrupting the countdown which started from 60).
  • at 10 km+ the missile have a very hight probability of fail because either the seeker cannot find the laser (the missiles fall like cans), or because the laser goes into cooling before the end of the guidance (loss of guidance at the end, the missile spits out near the target)

 

Another observation: In the missile configurations
DCS World\CoreMods\aircraft\AircraftWeaponPack\kh25_29_family.lua
Line 668 : max_seeker_range    = 8000

So the Seeker of the Kh25Ml have only 8 km of range.
All the documentation I find on the net indicates that the range of a Kh-25ML is around 10-11 km.

This range is not limited by the propulsion (the Kh-25 MPU which has practically the same propulsion has a range of 40 km), but is limited by the range of the seeker, which does not exceed 10 km. Also I am surprised to see this range restricted to 8 km in the DCS files.

For testing purposes, I tried to increase the seeker range to 10 km, and indeed, the behavior of the missile becomes interesting: 

- Fired at 10 km, the seeker immediately spots the laser designation and will guide itself to the target.
- Fired at 11 km, the missile must travel one kilometer before the missile manages to guide itself onto the target (with a probability that this will not work)
- Fired at 12 km, the failure rate is very high, either because the seeker does not find the target, or because the laser cools before impact

I therefore think that the missile's seeker should be increased to 10 km (which would remain much less than the 16 km of the Hellfire or the 18 of the AGM 65.)

image.png

Edited by Kappa-131st
Hobel

Hobel

Posted
Posted (edited)
vor 5 Stunden schrieb Kappa-131st:

I did another evening of tests with 3 allies, and the result is quite irregular: On several passes, the laser guided well all the missiles of my buddies, and on several others, the laser only guided a few missiles (often of the same device)...

On the other hand, we tried different tests (at different ranges), and here are some of the returns that I observed: 

  • When the missile is fired at its range of 8 km, the hit rate is relatively good, and the countdown on the HUD goes from 30 to 0, where the laser cooling turns on for 20 seconds. Observation: Barely fired, the missile guides itself towards the target
  • When the missile is fired at 9 km with a slight loft, the hit rate is quite good too. The missile will go straight for a few seconds before the guidance is activated, around 8 km. It will then tend to rise to fall back on the target.
  • At 10 km, the missile must be fired in loft, and its hit rate drops drastically and depends a lot on altitude. You have to wait a good 4 seconds during which the missiles go straight before the guidance is activated (if it is activated, because the failure rate is quite high). The failure rate can also be due to the cooling of the laser which can be activated before the missile hits the target (which very often happens when the missile is fired more than 10 km away). But what is interesting is that the laser countdown at the time of lock no longer starts from 30 sec to go to 0, but starts from 60 sec, and somewhere around 30-40 sec countdown, the cooling starts. active for 20 seconds (interrupting the countdown which started from 60).
  • at 10 km+ the missile have a very hight probability of fail because either the seeker cannot find the laser (the missiles fall like cans), or because the laser goes into cooling before the end of the guidance (loss of guidance at the end, the missile spits out near the target)

 

Another observation: In the missile configurations
DCS World\CoreMods\aircraft\AircraftWeaponPack\kh25_29_family.lua
Line 668 : max_seeker_range    = 8000

So the Seeker of the Kh25Ml have only 8 km of range.
All the documentation I find on the net indicates that the range of a Kh-25ML is around 10-11 km.

This range is not limited by the propulsion (the Kh-25 MPU which has practically the same propulsion has a range of 40 km), but is limited by the range of the seeker, which does not exceed 10 km. Also I am surprised to see this range restricted to 8 km in the DCS files.

For testing purposes, I tried to increase the seeker range to 10 km, and indeed, the behavior of the missile becomes interesting: 

- Fired at 10 km, the seeker immediately spots the laser designation and will guide itself to the target.
- Fired at 11 km, the missile must travel one kilometer before the missile manages to guide itself onto the target (with a probability that this will not work)
- Fired at 12 km, the failure rate is very high, either because the seeker does not find the target, or because the laser cools before impact

I therefore think that the missile's seeker should be increased to 10 km (which would remain much less than the 16 km of the Hellfire or the 18 of the AGM 65.)

image.png

 

are you sure that the seeker has a range of ~10km?

I think if the Missile would fly the loft profile it would be no problem to see the laser over ~10km.



image.png.095527819f4c0eaede06a1ec5a8f6940.png

2.JPG

Edited by Hobel
 Share
Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...