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I can hear a plane!


GGTharos
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You're talking about the dodgy French officer and the 4 day unchanged flight plans? Yes there a factor but how do you explain the 6 minute window? They could never calculate the time of travel to within 16KM or a maximum of 6 minutes.

 

You don't need to calculate squat if you have the flight plan and/or someone with a cellphone in say a forest or village listening for your target ...

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You don't need to calculate squat if you have the flight plan and/or someone with a cellphone in say a forest or village listening for your target ...

 

Listening for a F-117 cruising at 15-25000? as in using the MK1 ear.


Edited by Vault

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Try 8000.

 

Do you have a link for that information? The F-117's combat opeartion height is 15000-25000. I find it amazing that the USAF would operate a VLO aircraft outside of the The F-117's combat opeartion height of 15000-25000. 8000 is 1.5 miles, I'm not sure if you'd hear a cruising non AB aircraft at that height.

 

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Do you have a link for that information? The F-117's combat opeartion height is 15000-25000. I find it amazing that the USAF would operate a VLO aircraft outside of the The F-117's combat opeartion height of 15000-25000. 8000 is 1.5 miles, I'm not sure if you'd hear a cruising non AB aircraft at that height.

 

I hear aircraft at that altitude consistently, and Im partially deaf. Depending on what the atmospheric pressure is, you can hear noises from quite a way out. You cant accurately drop bombs from above 15k either, there are too many variables on the way down, like wind resistance, wind direction change, relative humidity and so forth. It can be done, but itll have to be a good day to do anything better than piss poor performance.

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I hear aircraft at that altitude consistently, and Im partially deaf. Depending on what the atmospheric pressure is, you can hear noises from quite a way out. You cant accurately drop bombs from above 15k either, there are too many variables on the way down, like wind resistance, wind direction change, relative humidity and so forth. It can be done, but itll have to be a good day to do anything better than piss poor performance.

 

OK Hitman, I don't get to hear many F-117's where I live. It makes no sense why a VLO aircraft would fly combat operations within ear shot. Who needs a low blow search and fire control radar for detection when you have the MK1 earlobe.

 

F-117 is able to hit a 1 metre target at 25000 at night time. LGB's are accurate at 25000.


Edited by Vault

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Vault, references I found on service ceiling varied between 10k (sounds a bit low but with that shape, who knows) to 20k.

 

I was also unable to find any solid reference to which designator the 117 used to guide it's bombs and (no real surprise) no reference to range limits of designators of the same era. Would be interesting if someone happens to have some sources on that.

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OK Hitman, I don't get to hear many F-117's where I live. It makes no sense why a VLO aircraft would fly combat operations within ear shot. Who needs a low blow search and fire control radar for detection when you have the MK1 earlobe.

 

F-117 is able to hit a 1 metre target at 25000 at night time. LGB's are accurate at 25000.

Its kinda hard not to be in earshot range...turbofans and the like are rather loud no matter how much muffling you put on the exhaust.

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Be sure that every time they (any plane, not just F-117s) were droping something, we could hear them. It's not like thunder you hear on air shows or takeoffs. More like a distant, constant roumbling sound. Except one time when some F-16s did get a little lower and you could hear that familiar screach. And AAA guys were sure to use that throwing everything in everything they had (the little three barel - frrrrrrr, the Praga 30mils - t t t t t t t t t t t, the huge Bofors 40s - pf pf pf) . That was the first and last time someone flew that low. Only

Also, some people were even able to identify a MiGs just by sound (hows that for IFF :D).

Silent, supprise attacs came only by cruise (and other) missiles.

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My point was, you could hear them even when they were'nt flying low. Answer to your question is complex. Btw, 10 years tomorow. Time does fly :|

 

nscode thanks for replying. Time sure does fly, my kids are testament to that. I'm not trying to be argumentative and I believe you but I have a video that I've taken of a Eurofighter performing a display, I couldn't hear that Eurofighter when it was less than 2 miles from me. I have it on video. Anyone who has heard a Eurofighter will no that they are far from quiet.

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I got jet fighters flying over my head several times a week. Trying to represent a situation when it can be heard, you have to consider its speed, altitude and throttle position. Terrain (mountainous for example) can be an issue too in some circumstances.

 

I can say that a Su-27 going roughly 500 km/h, altitude ~600m, lo-mid throttle, cannot be heard when it's coming in your direction. You hear the sound only when it's bypassing overhead already.

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Yes, vault, but it's never a single airplane. A network of spotters was organized and they were releying information to command centers (military and civil - for air raid warnings) of what they could see and hear. It was not perfect, but it worked.

 

Even F-117s had escort. The escort didn't know the exact position of the stealth, but they were in the general area. And if you can detect the escort, you know something is going on. That is why it's important for stealth strike aircraft to have an ability to defent themselves.

Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.

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I believe that particular (and only) F-117A was shot at an altitude of 8000ft so I believe GGTharos is right, it could be heard.

 

Thing is that night was cloudy and since F-117A had LGBs that require optical ID of the target and guidance with a TGP pod, ingress/egress altitude was below cloud base!

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I believe that particular (and only) F-117A was shot at an altitude of 8000ft so I believe GGTharos is right, it could be heard.

 

Thing is that night was cloudy and since F-117A had LGBs that require optical ID of the target and guidance with a TGP pod, ingress/egress altitude was below cloud base!

 

I can't find any reliable information confirming the SAM hit the F-117 at 8000 ft, I'd like to get my hands on that info if anyone has a link. I'm not saying GGTharos is wrong, but I can't understand why the pilot thought the ejection seat was in mode 3, mode 3 is automatically selected by the chair when the aircraft is at high altitude. Also the pilot states he watched the first SA-3 come out of the cloudbase and had time to manoeuvre which also indicates he was a high altitude, You'd be lucky to even see the SA-3 at 8000FT with the limited vision of the F-117 let alone manoeuvre considering the cloudbase would of hidden the tale tale sign of the launch plume.

 

The pilot states in his own words he had just performed a sortie using an LGB moments before he was shot down, Which also indicates this was performed at a high altitude and above the cloud base, I highly doubt that the USAF would make a laser targetting system for a VLO aircraft that was dictated by the height of the cloudbase, that would be tactically illogical, Put enough energy into a laser it will cut through metal there is absoultley no reason why a laser cannot cut through water vapour. IMHO I'm confident that F-117 dropped that LGB at high altitude and above the cloudbase.

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I can't find any reliable information confirming the SAM hit the F-117 at 8000 ft, I'd like to get my hands on that info if anyone has a link. I'm not saying GGTharos is wrong,

 

I'll see if I can find it - no promises.

 

but I can't understand why the pilot thought the ejection seat was in mode 3, mode 3 is automatically selected by the chair when the aircraft is at high altitude.

 

Means nothing to me - but that's because I don't know a whole lot about said chair.

 

Also the pilot states he watched the first SA-3 come out of the cloudbase and had time to manoeuvre which also indicates he was a high altitude, You'd be lucky to even see the SA-3 at 8000FT with the limited vision of the F-117 let alone manoeuvre considering the cloudbase would of hidden the tale tale sign of the launch plume.

 

No. It only indicates that there may have been a 2000' overcast. Multiple layers are possible. As for limited vision, you'd have to be outright blind to miss that telephone pole with its butt on fire.

 

The pilot states in his own words he had just performed a sortie using an LGB moments before he was shot down, Which also indicates this was performed at a high altitude and above the cloud base, I highly doubt that the USAF would make a laser targetting system for a VLO aircraft that was dictated by the height of the cloudbase, that would be tactically illogical, Put enough energy into a laser it will cut through metal there is absoultley no reason why a laser cannot cut through water vapour. IMHO I'm confident that F-117 dropped that LGB at high altitude and above the cloudbase.

 

I'm sorry, but TGPs are not magical. They CANNOT see through clouds. The laser is also IR which is readily absorbed by moisture typically. The only thing you're dropping through a cloud base is a JDAM or datalinked glide bomb.

 

If you're going to be dropping an LGB, you'll be doing it either under the cloud base, or through an opening in the clouds.

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

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Yes, vault, but it's never a single airplane. A network of spotters was organized and they were releying information to command centers (military and civil - for air raid warnings) of what they could see and hear. It was not perfect, but it worked.

 

Even F-117s had escort. The escort didn't know the exact position of the stealth, but they were in the general area. And if you can detect the escort, you know something is going on. That is why it's important for stealth strike aircraft to have an ability to defent themselves.

 

nscode I can agree with non LO aircraft running sorties at low altitude, especially aircraft with ground mapping radar will perform combat operations at low to medium altitudes but I find it hard to believe that a VLO F-117 would operate well outside of it's LO optimal parameters, at 8000ft the F-117 is minimising its main tactical advantage LO. In operation desert storm F-117's flew sorties without an escort against what was arguably the most advanced IADS outside of the warpact.

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Here's an educational link (though it doesn't contain the answer you're seeking)

 

http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/StealthS03.pdf

 

Also, ignore their conclusions ... they're a little ... um.

 

And again, the F-117 isn't minimizing anything at 8000' ... since its flying at night and in mountainous territory.

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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I'll see if I can find it - no promises.

 

Ok Thanks.

 

Means nothing to me - but that's because I don't know a whole lot about said chair..

 

IIRC ACES2

 

No. It only indicates that there may have been a 2000' overcast. Multiple layers are possible. As for limited vision, you'd have to be outright blind to miss that telephone pole with its butt on fire.

 

The actual pilot that was shot down states he saw the first SA-3 come out of the cloudbase.

 

I'm sorry, but TGPs are not magical. They CANNOT see through clouds. The laser is also IR which is readily absorbed by moisture typically. The only thing you're dropping through a cloud base is a JDAM or datalinked glide bomb.

 

If you're going to be dropping an LGB, you'll be doing it either under the cloud base, or through an opening in the clouds.

 

Hi GG, Do you have a figure for the maximum output of the energy of the laser?. It's more than possible, I've seen comercially available lasers that are able to penetrate clouds. I can't 100% say the F-117's laser is able to penetrate clouds but you can't say it can't either, like you I can only guess at the best. The F-117 laser output is shrouded in so much secrecy. Logically thinking it would be stupid to design a VLO aircraft that can only deploy weapons that are dictated by the height of the cloudbase even more so for an aircraft that uses LO as its main weapon, high altitude optimises VLO parameters, If a laser is unable to cut through water vapour that would mean that the laser would also be useless in enviroments of high humidity like the tropics.

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Here's an educational link (though it doesn't contain the answer you're seeking)

 

Also, ignore their conclusions ... they're a little ... um.

 

Thanks for the educational link, like you I can't find any litrature about the F-117 being hit at 8000ft.

 

And again, the F-117 isn't minimizing anything at 8000' ... since its flying at night and in mountainous territory.

 

By flying low the F-117 is minimizing its LO parameters against ground based search radars.

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No, it isn't (the difference between 1nm and 3-4nm isn't going to save your bacon in this case).

 

I did find another link that claims USAF confirmed your version of the story actually, that the 117 had not descended below 15000.

However, I have not found any USAF reports relating to that. I'll try to ask some peeps who might know where to point me at.

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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No, it isn't (the difference between 1nm and 3-4nm isn't going to save your bacon in this case).

 

I did find another link that claims USAF confirmed your version of the story actually, that the 117 had not descended below 15000.

However, I have not found any USAF reports relating to that. I'll try to ask some peeps who might know where to point me at.

 

GG please ask I'd like to know the real scenario, I've searched everywhere. There is alot of evidence mainly from the pilots interview that this kill was at high altitude.


Edited by Vault

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Actually, the ground is pretty much flat here in the north where it was shot down.

 

I didn't know that, Why would a VLO aircraft fly low on flat ground? Logically it just makes zero sense, it can't even use ground masking to improve its VLO parameters.

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