hitman Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Hitman do us all the favour and show a little more respect towards the Yugoslavian airdefense as well as to the coalition troops. I don't think either of the sides in this conflict thought about the others as noobs. NATO was well aware of how dangerous the yugoslavian AD is. Thanks in advance! WOW!! Most everything I said is matched line by line with this report. Read between the lines and you will learn a lot about what I mentioned as "stealth myth". I like this!! I think your forgetting someone else, Groove. Ill start showing respect as soon as. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Groove Posted March 30, 2009 ED Team Share Posted March 30, 2009 Did they have a upgraded SA-3 System back then ? Our Forum Rules: http://forums.eagle.ru/rules.php#en Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Groove Posted March 30, 2009 ED Team Share Posted March 30, 2009 I think your forgetting someone else, Groove. Nah, as i think 99,9% of old the older forums members i simply got used to Hajduk's irrational behaviour regarding the incident with that unlucky bomber. Our Forum Rules: http://forums.eagle.ru/rules.php#en Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitman Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 PM sent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekkinho Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 (edited) I watched a Serbian documentary on the SA-3 battery commander (IIRC his name appears Hungarian) who shot a F-117A! He's not too thrilled about it, laidback, he's very modest and unpretentious and nowadays he owns a bakery and bakes a bread. He reminds me of: He must have been a fan! LOL! Edit: I can't find that SA-3 commander documentary online, guy answered and described precisely how he shot the Nighthawk so if anyone knows a link please post it! I believe it would give us all some answers! Edited March 30, 2009 by Vekkinho [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vault Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 SA-3 has a TV camera for guidenance in case its in a heavy ECM enviroment. The camera is also capable of tracking targets at night. Actually you can see the TV screen on the left of this picture: Groove I wish I could rep you some more, once again, what a great find. There is a possibility that the F-117 was shot down using passive guidance which would explain the "not operating in its normal, radar-guided mode" statement there is also specualtion that the SA-3 uses IR terminal guidance which is also plausible but unconfirmed. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 The SA-3 has no terminal tracking of any sort (those sort of things tend to end up with direct hits). Command guided systems tend to be like that - there's very few systems that use a mix (ie. sparrow used to use either homing-all-the-way or beam-riding until homing). [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vault Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 (edited) The SA-3 has no terminal tracking of any sort (those sort of things tend to end up with direct hits). Command guided systems tend to be like that - there's very few systems that use a mix (ie. sparrow used to use either homing-all-the-way or beam-riding until homing). I agree with you GGT, I can't find no evidence of any IR sensor on the SA-3, the SA-3 must be guided by optical tracking. Edited March 30, 2009 by Vault [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nscode Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 It was S-125M with additional unkown modifications. Zoltan never mentioned TV guidance. In fact, he specificly mentiones the crew got a radar lock. A few things about that report. Some things are a bit wrong. First, it wasn't over hilly terrain. I think they mixed it up with that F-117 that got between a MiG and a NATO jet. They say "a salvo" of missiles, making it sound like there was a bunch of missiles fired. In fact, there were only two, and the first one did not guide properly or at all. Also, HARMS would not be of much help against SA-3. They're about as effective against it, as SAMs are to F-117. You can score a hit, but it's much much harder than with other systems (due to longer wavelenght). If you want to defeat SA-3, LGBs or IR missiles are the way to go. Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4c Hajduk Veljko Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 (edited) Very intresting post Groove. It's like a goddamn Lion's den in here. Hajduk LO technology is effective, LO increases PK by the dictum of first see, first shot, first kill theory.I've never said stealth was infective. All of my discussion about the stealth and the shoot down of F-117 was summarized in that report. Line by line .... So I am happy. And I am sure we will be returning to that report, line by line, and discuss it. Edited March 31, 2009 by =4c= Hajduk Veljko 1 Thermaltake Kandalf LCS | Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R | Etasis ET750 (850W Max) | i7-920 OC to 4.0 GHz | Gigabyte HD5850 | OCZ Gold 6GB DDR3 2000 | 2 X 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD in RAID 0 | ASUS VW266H 25.5" | LG Blue Ray 10X burner | TIR 5 | Saitek X-52 Pro | Logitech G930 | Saitek Pro flight rudder pedals | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitman Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I've never said stealth was infective. All of my discussion about the stealth and the shoot down of F-117 was summarized in that report. Line by line .... So I am happy. And I am sure we will be cumming back to that report, line by line, and discuss it. :music_whistling: WOW!! Most everything I said is matched line by line with this report. Read between the lines and you will learn a lot about what I mentioned as "stealth myth". I like this!! The very definition of a hypocrite. Its effective, but alas, its a myth. What rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vault Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 (edited) It was S-125M with additional unkown modifications. Zoltan never mentioned TV guidance. In fact, he specificly mentiones the crew got a radar lock. A few things about that report. Some things are a bit wrong. First, it wasn't over hilly terrain. I think they mixed it up with that F-117 that got between a MiG and a NATO jet. They say "a salvo" of missiles, making it sound like there was a bunch of missiles fired. In fact, there were only two, and the first one did not guide properly or at all. Also, HARMS would not be of much help against SA-3. They're about as effective against it, as SAMs are to F-117. You can score a hit, but it's much much harder than with other systems (due to longer wavelenght). If you want to defeat SA-3, LGBs or IR missiles are the way to go. Hi nscode. A salvo of missiles is a bit dramatic for two SA-3's. I came across this dubious link http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-230408-1.html it's worth a read but it's best taken with a very large pinch of salt. Grishna's English is almost comical. Janes radar and electronic warfare systems book confirms that the Yugoslavian/Serbian Army was operating the Low Blow SNR-125 which confirms Grishna's statement in regard to the use of the SNR-125, it does not say anything about the SNR-125M, I have the 2002-2003 edition so this could of been updated. The Low Blow's FC and tracking radar was using an I band (8-10GHZ) SHF radar, The classification of the I band is actually a NATO designation but if you convert the NATO I band classification to IEEE/US standards the I band is classified as the X band (8.2-12.4 GHz), The X band has a very short wave length and not a long wave length making the SNR-125 "Low Blow" vulnerable to NATO CJ's armed with ARM's. Edited March 31, 2009 by Vault typo [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4c Hajduk Veljko Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I find the statement "not operating in its normal, radar-guided mode" interesting and confusing ....In that documentary, SAM commander is talking about modifications to the original system. I don't really know if that has something to do with "not operating in its normal, radar guided mode". Commander said "we flip the switch on and there they were. Two of them, one was turning back". Thermaltake Kandalf LCS | Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R | Etasis ET750 (850W Max) | i7-920 OC to 4.0 GHz | Gigabyte HD5850 | OCZ Gold 6GB DDR3 2000 | 2 X 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD in RAID 0 | ASUS VW266H 25.5" | LG Blue Ray 10X burner | TIR 5 | Saitek X-52 Pro | Logitech G930 | Saitek Pro flight rudder pedals | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted March 31, 2009 Author Share Posted March 31, 2009 Apparently he did some modifications to the missile radio fuze. If anything it was likely a minor modification (Taking apart a missile and rebuilding the electronics when you probably don't have design blueprints and potentially don't understand what you have there anyway is rather ... unlikely) to slightly change prf, wavelengths or more likely timing or detection thresholds. The other possibility is receiving a modified fuze from an um ... ally who might be manufacturing these, and replacing the existing missile fuzes with those. My guess is he made the fuze more sensitive which may normally make the missile less effective against standard targets (might detonate the fuze on chaff for example, or far too early) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekkinho Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 They say "a salvo" of missiles, making it sound like there was a bunch of missiles fired. Actually, salvo is all >1! 1 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vault Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 The link I posted above in #63 is down, the whole domain is also down, when that link is back up, read that link I posted with caution, IIRC Grishna, a Serbian commander, explains the tactics deployed that led to the destruction of the F-117. 1 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morsmortis Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2005/11/secrets-of-1999-f-117-shootdown.html Try this. Seems legit. Although, I do miss the pages with the fanatical claims of 300+ Nato planes shotdown including a F-117 shot down with a R-73 in SHELM mode and a B-2 shot down near some lake. With all due respect to the Serbian guys on the forum, it was highly amusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Groove Posted April 1, 2009 ED Team Share Posted April 1, 2009 Guys, if you want to talk about this incident, i have no problem with it as long as it stays technical. Anything else will be deleted instantly. We are getting complaints about all the political chit-chat around that particular incident. Our Forum Rules: http://forums.eagle.ru/rules.php#en Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nscode Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I never saw the 300 figure, always ~100 but yes, it highly LOLable. But, aside from the two confirmed kills, there are several confirmed damaged, and also some unconfirmed damaged, but coming from legit sources (the 50, 100, and such figures come from press rooms). Also there were many UAVs and cruise missiles hit, and since many people liked to watch the fireforks outside, those could be interpreted by someone as planes being hit. Our own jets falling, SAMs selfdistructing and other things like that could also contribute to that. Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilotasso Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Everybody knows the media completely blown the numbers out of proportions for political agendas. We dont have to enter in any bikery. The Serbs themselves know this. [sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic] My PC specs below:Case: Corsair 400C PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T) RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4 GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CE_Mikemonster Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Great reading fellas! [bin doing RL stuff, hello again :)] Too many cowboys. Not enough indians. GO APE SH*T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vault Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Apologies for resurrecting this thread, I finally got around to watching the full interview of Col. Zoltan Dani the Serbian battery commander who was credited with the kill on Vega1. Col. Zoltan Dani specifically and cleary states in his interview "we used optical guidance to shoot down the American stealth fighter", the modified VHF band NNIIRT P-18 Spoon Rest acquisition radar was used only for tracking and observing the F-117's only, I believe but cannot prove that Col. Zoltan Dani's home brew modification to the S-125M system was an unconvetional interface that allowed the P-18 to communicate with the S-125M. After the war Serbia sold the NNIIRT upgrade to the Chinese, the largest operator of the P-18. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nscode Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Since you've brought the thread up, I'll add one thing that my friend reminded me of a few days ago: dogs :) She says that you could see her dog just stand up, stare at one point, see the hair go up on his back, count to 7 and then you would hear an explosion. Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekkinho Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 My cat always jumps in the window when Croatian MiG-21bis Fishbeds take off 8 nautical miles away at Pleso AB or when she hears fighter jets in the sky above the Zagreb! She doesn't do that with civil airliners, and she didn't do that when USAFE F-16 CAPed over Zagreb guarding geedubbayoubee's AF-1 parked at Pleso! Really funny cat... OK now back on topic, @Vault, was it a Zoltan Dani video from the bakery You watched?! Can U post a link in case it's uploaded to a Youtube or some similar service? I'd like to watch it again, I watched it like 6 or 7 Years ago on PTC (Serbian Channel) and signal was poor here in Zagreb, Croatia (most probably jammed, it's pretty common) so I had very bad audio whan I watched it! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vault Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) @Vault, was it a Zoltan Dani video from the bakery You watched?! Can U post a link in case it's uploaded to a Youtube or some similar service? I watched the Zoltan Dani interview on sky, his interview was part of a documentary on stealth technology. I can't be 100% sure but I think this was the documentary that contains Dani's interview. The documentary was on Discovery 20/4/09 at 21:00 GMT. http://www.mytvblog.org/?p=1752 If you scroll down to the bottom of the page in the link below it states a lucky shot without the use of radar. Scrap the link above I now think it was this documentary I watched. One of these documentaries contains Dani's interview. http://military.discovery.com/convergence/stealth/article/article_02.html Edited April 21, 2009 by Vault [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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