nothing to fix The sensation of speed

[Hiob]

38 minutes ago, draconus said:

The effect you mention might be your setup dependent or some driver/3rd party software bug/setting. There's certainly no scale problem for most VR users and HMDs.

How to do it per module? I only know of IPD general setting on DCS > settings > VR tab.

Yeah, sorry. I phrased it misleading. What I meant is, you can leave it on "default" or set it as you like and you can do it on the fly, whilst you are flying the airframe. There is no way to save it permanently on a per airframe basis afaik.

Sorry, my bad.

[zetikka]

On 2/21/2024 at 10:21 AM, Hiob said:

You know, that you can adjust the IDP/Worldscale in DCS per Module, right?

I know you can change IDP in the VR tab - which has only and effect on the relative size of the cockpit, but not the world around.

Worldscale in the System tab is basically the zoom level in 2D mode, it has no effect on VR.

None of these is specific to the F/A-18 Module though.

Are you referring to some module-specific .lua file? I am definitely interest if so  

[zetikka]

On 2/21/2024 at 1:03 PM, draconus said:

The effect you mention might be your setup dependent or some driver/3rd party software bug/setting. There's certainly no scale problem for most VR users and HMDs.

I guess one gets used to these things - I actually hardly notice anymore when I fly DCS on a regular base. It is when I do some casual MSFS VR flying in the Alps and then get back at DCS that is jumps back at me. I hope that as graphic capabilities improve ED will give up on that auto-scaling trees.

[SharpeXB]

27 minutes ago, zetikka said:

I know you can change IDP in the VR tab - which has only and effect on the relative size of the cockpit, but not the world around.

Of course that affects the entire 3D world. How else would you figure that works? The effect is just more noticable in the cockpit compared to far away objects. 

Edited February 28 by SharpeXB

[zetikka]

14 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Of course that affects the entire 3D world. How else would you figure that works? The effect is just more noticable in the cockpit compared to far away objects. 

 

Maybe in theory, but in practice you do not see a difference. I have tested in-cockpit yesterday, with very different IDP settings.

[draconus]

28 minutes ago, zetikka said:

Maybe in theory, but in practice you do not see a difference. I have tested in-cockpit yesterday, with very different IDP settings.

I can only repeat: it might be specific to your setup or some driver/3rd party software bug/setting overriding DCS setting. There's certainly no scale problem for most VR users and HMDs, and IPD setting most definitely is changing the world scale in the game by simulating the rendered distance between eyes/cameras. Go here to continue the discussion because it doesn't belong in this thread.

[SharpeXB]

4 hours ago, zetikka said:

Maybe in theory, but in practice you do not see a difference. I have tested in-cockpit yesterday, with very different IDP settings.

The fact that world scale affects everything you see isn’t a theory. It’s a fact. 

[freehand]

In DCS Mine feels great in VR perhaps MSFS is wrong.

Edited February 29 by freehand

[SharpeXB]

How do any of you guys know what “feels right” is? Are you real life F-18 pilots who really fly every day over the Caucasus and compare it to DCS

[freehand]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

How do any of you guys know what “feels right” is? Are you real life F-18 pilots who really fly every day over the Caucasus and compare it to DCS

haha true.

[SharpeXB]

It’s like asking if a YouTube GoPro test drive of my car feels like driving the real thing

[freehand]

Looking at movers flights in the F18 low level and other flights e.t.c in VR for me looks on the money.

[Hiob]

40 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

How do any of you guys know what “feels right” is? Are you real life F-18 pilots who really fly every day over the Caucasus and compare it to DCS

Exactly.

Actually you just need to ride any express railroad that goes like 300 kph. Yes the trees directly next to the track zoom by, but the trees on the other side of the field of crops already barely move.

Or take off as a passenger on an Airliner. Shortly after take off you will go 200 knots 1000 feet above the ground and it barely frickin moves at all….

You guys are just tricked by Hollywood where they spend a lot of effort to make it more thrilling than it really is. When you take away the frequent cuts, sound effects and ridiculous amounts of motion blur, Top Gun Maverick looses half its speed….  

[zetikka]

28 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

How do any of you guys know what “feels right” is? Are you real life F-18 pilots who really fly every day over the Caucasus and compare it to DCS

Your brains does that free for you, provided you have some real-life experience. I my case I have quite some hours of flying - sure not in a hornet - but hanging 1000m above an alpine valley's floor builds a good picture of what perspective/scale from is up there looks like.

 

[SharpeXB]

48 minutes ago, zetikka said:

Your brains does that free for you, provided you have some real-life experience. I my case I have quite some hours of flying - sure not in a hornet - but hanging 1000m above an alpine valley's floor builds a good picture of what perspective/scale from is up there looks like.

 

Yeah but you’re playing a computer game. So why does this matter? A PC racing sim is not going to feel like driving a real car no matter how realistic the game is. I think everyone knows this. Or should. The fact that all this needs to be explained is quite disturbing  

Edited February 29 by SharpeXB

[Dragon1-1]

18 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah but you’re playing a computer game.

Ah, yeah, this old chestnut. This is what people say when they run out of arguments as to why this shouldn't be looked at. "It's just a game, it's not worth fixing the flaws."

It's also a load of bollocks. The fact that this needs to be explained is what's really disturbing. We are, in fact, talking about a purely visual sensation. If you can't see out, you can't even determine if you're moving or not, especially if the ride is smooth (this is why motion simulators work). And it is, in fact, very much possible to make a video game look exactly like a real image. DCS is still only in "close enough" category, but the discussion is about whether it's already good and can be made closer.

19 hours ago, Hiob said:

You guys are just tricked by Hollywood where they spend a lot of effort to make it more thrilling than it really is. When you take away the frequent cuts, sound effects and ridiculous amounts of motion blur, Top Gun Maverick looses half its speed….  

That's true, games can make even a fairly leisurely drive at highway speeds feel like you're riding a rocket.  Although, I suspect that it would help if DCS had functional motion blur. IRL it's not nearly as exaggerated, but it's there. A better blur algorithm compatible with VR and integrated with modern visuals could possibly make a difference when flying through a canyon at supersonic speeds. Which isn't to say flying low level in VR isn't pretty hair-raising already.

[zetikka]

18 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah but you’re playing a computer game. So why does this matter? A PC racing sim is not going to feel like driving a real car no matter how realistic the game is. I think everyone knows this. Or should. The fact that all this needs to be explained is quite disturbing  

 

For the same reason you want a faithful flight model, realistic damages, etc.: because this is supposed to be a simulation of real combat jet, not an arcade game.

You do not need to agree with me, you have your expectations, I have mine. I am just sharing them and looking for possible technical solutions with whoever might be interested in reaching the same results. This in not a "I am right you are wrong" contest, let's try to be a bit more constructive than that please.

[Hiob]

9 minutes ago, zetikka said:

For the same reason you want a faithful flight model, realistic damages, etc.: because this is supposed to be a simulation of real combat jet, not an arcade game.

And how exactly would adding some kind of artificial and unrealistic sensation of speed help with making it less „arcady“?

And what is your supposed solution to this? Speed is a fact not a feeling. Moving x nm in y minutes gives an objective speed. You can’t change that. Same for the relative size of objects. You can change the superficial perception of speed by the means discussed at length in this thread….

But how exactly would you suggest to do it, without being artificial and unrealistic?

[draconus]

@zetikka Of course your speed feel is different if you still have scale issue in your DCS VR. Fix the scale problem, make sure your IPD setting actually work and only then compare to RL.

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Ah, yeah, this old chestnut. This is what people say when they run out of arguments as to why this shouldn't be looked at. "It's just a game, it's not worth fixing the flaws."

I don’t meant to say it’s not realistic or shouldn’t be. I’m saying it’s literally a game on your computer. Again it feels as real as playing a PC racing game is vs driving a real car. 
As far as realism is concerned there’s nothing that needs to be fixed with the game. 

2 hours ago, zetikka said:

For the same reason you want a faithful flight model, realistic damages, etc.: because this is supposed to be a simulation of real combat jet, not an arcade game

Again there’s nothing wrong here with flight models. The problem is people comparing a game with GoPro YouTube videos.

The fact that these things need to be explained is hilarious and disturbing…

Edited March 1 by SharpeXB

[zetikka]

59 minutes ago, Hiob said:

And how exactly would adding some kind of artificial and unrealistic sensation of speed help with making it less „arcady“?

And what is your supposed solution to this? Speed is a fact not a feeling. Moving x nm in y minutes gives an objective speed. You can’t change that. Same for the relative size of objects. You can change the superficial perception of speed by the means discussed at length in this thread….

But how exactly would you suggest to do it, without being artificial and unrealistic?

In my opinion the perception of speed if off as a consequence of the world scale being off, so let's focus on that one only. 

You get the feeling of scale based on the way each image perspective is built, how parallax between the two VR images is constructed, the scale of objects you see, and what atmospheric effects you add.

In DCS objects - namely trees - are notoriously off-scale and are auto-grown with distance to really ridiculous sizes to save on polygon count. That would be the main point to fix through an optional slider. It that would not be enough then other parameters should be consider, but object scale is most likely the issue.
 

[draconus]

6 minutes ago, zetikka said:

In my opinion the perception of speed if off as a consequence of the world scale being off...

Only on your PC it seems.

[Dragon1-1]

25 minutes ago, zetikka said:

In my opinion the perception of speed if off as a consequence of the world scale being off,

There's already a slider for that, you know? It's mislabeled as IPD adjustment, but it actually modifies world scale. Setting it correctly should help.

As for the trees, Caucasus ones at least do, supposedly, grow as big as they're modeled in DCS, even in cities. 

Edited March 1 by Dragon1-1

[zetikka]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

@zetikka Of course your speed feel is different if you still have scale issue in your DCS VR. Fix the scale problem, make sure your IPD setting actually work and only then compare to RL.

OK, let's do some math (mind?) to stop with this "just fix your IDP" thing.

If you have say a 61mm IDP and stare at an object distant 2000m away, each of your eyes will have to divert by 0.0008737° inward. It is simple trigonometry. If you have the perception that such object is like 500m away, it means the angle is 0.003495°. Four times larger. For that object to look again like it is 2000m away, I will have to reduce your IDP by the same 4x factor, so and IDP of 15.25mm.   

Second example: with 60mm IDP that 2000m distant object will have your eye diverting by 0.0008594°. If you increase IDP to 65mm it will look 2166m away. Can you tell +166m at 2km? I cannot.

This is why changing IDP between normal values as a visible effect of the cockpit (which is a very close object), but about zero on distant ones.  

Can we stop beating this horse now?

[draconus]

5 minutes ago, zetikka said:

This is why changing IDP between normal values as a visible effect of the cockpit (which is a very close object), but about zero on distant ones.

You're right. Being a giant or midget will only affect the vision of the closest objects - not distant ones. If you feel that distant objects are wrong in size you'll have to take your issue here as obviously there's something wrong on your setup.