Some questions and perhaps frustrations with this module

[cow_art]

2 hours ago, deloy said:

Remember guys, the CAS (Command Augmentation System) is for a different reason than SAS, both systems are termed as SCAS as a whole.  The whole purpose of CAS (it is elaborated very well in the manual) is to give a "power steering" type of response where it augments your control input to make it feel the same when flying at all speeds, so this extra SCAS response you see on controls indicator is actually correct. The CAS should also function when FTR is depressed, which is not correctly modeled at the moment, therefore the helicopter response is the same as FMC off when you flying with Force Trim (FTR) depressed.  So essentially if you press and hold FTR, it just switches the CAS system off also.  This is very evident in control indicator, as you see no movement in "green cross".

 

Cheers

The CAS turning off when FTR is depressed may very well be part of the problem. But as far as I understand there is another problem, which comes from the interaction between the CAS logic and the "flight model".

(Disclaimer: I am sure we have some SME here who can explain the problem far more accurately than me. But I'll give it a try, based on my limited understanding)

AFAIK one job of the CAS is to provide a more immediate response to pilot inputs. In the real Apache there are delays in the control system. The CAS attempts to eliminate these delays by leading the inputs the pilot makes. The problem seems to be, that the delays, which the CAS is trying to eliminate, are currently not simulated in DCS. As a result the CAS in DCS needlessly exaggerates control inputs. Hence the twitchyness and instability.

Edited February 28, 2024 by cow_art

[bradmick]

I have literally explained how system works in both the real Apache and dcs in this thread as well as countless others. I’ve said the same thing more times than I can count. Keep going with the conjecture though, because it definitely resolves things and doesn’t muddy the waters or confuse people at all. 

[macedk]

1 hour ago, bradmick said:

I have literally explained how system works in both the real Apache and dcs in this thread as well as countless others. I’ve said the same thing more times than I can count. Keep going with the conjecture though, because it definitely resolves things and doesn’t muddy the waters or confuse people at all. 

Well said

[104th_Money]

The Apache definitely got harder to fly after latest update. Before takeoff I usually disable yaw channel in FMC and during takeoffs and hovers use FTR to be stable and as I move into forward flight at around 30-50 kts I release FTR but yaw channel is permanently disabled. I tried flying it after the update and it has certainly has gotten harder at hover and slow speeds. Normal forward flight seems the same. 
 

I tried not disabling yaw channel using FTR and not using FTR and it’s almost uncontrollable for me…I know it’s a huge undertaking to get it right but it really needs to get fixed already. 

[Raptor9]

The flight model was not changed in this update. I would recommend double-checking that something has not changed in your hardware or control settings.

[AirSenpai]

On 2/28/2024 at 4:52 PM, 104th_Money said:

The Apache definitely got harder to fly after latest update. Before takeoff I usually disable yaw channel in FMC and during takeoffs and hovers use FTR to be stable and as I move into forward flight at around 30-50 kts I release FTR but yaw channel is permanently disabled. I tried flying it after the update and it has certainly has gotten harder at hover and slow speeds. Normal forward flight seems the same. 
 

I tried not disabling yaw channel using FTR and not using FTR and it’s almost uncontrollable for me…I know it’s a huge undertaking to get it right but it really needs to get fixed already. 

Flight model feels the same, what works better and has been refined was the ATT HOLD and ALT HOLD.

the only thing i agree with casmo is that, the feels on the wheels are weird when you lock the wheels and move forward and hit the breaks after collective down and wheter your reset the scas or not, the tail wants to go to the right, but apart from that, the fm have not changed.

[104th_Money]

I've since decided to permanently disable the whole FMC before takeoff. It is much easier for me to control now, especially during takeoffs/landings/hovering...Only problem is that it disables all of the trim modes so I just fly by hand...

[Watari]

Im into DCS helis since BS1 and had some RL hours in the R22.
The  Apache is a bitch
I developed a habit that made the apache failry stable and enjoyable.:
Dont depress FTB, just spam like in the BS.

I use Att hold all the time but turn it off for manouvering and on right after.

Regulary reset the trim . Dont no why but i have the impression its less wobbling and oversensitive.

In short: trim,trim, att hold off, manouver, trim att hold on trim trim, reset trim, trim .... repeat

Only small inputs.

I found it funny that george is flying even worse than I. That guy must be drinking in the back. So AI is struggling with the FM too.

 

I have a TM WH with extension. no curves 
 

[JetCat]

A lot of practice and the magic trim reset button now gives good take-offs, smooth easygoing flights, even more or less stable hoovering is no problem (as long as it slowly flies forward - with 15 knots or so.)

Weather vaning, vortex ring state and other details are perfectly simulated, DCS is clearly the best helicopter simulation out there.

But hoovering with 0 knots is extremely difficult in the Apache because the heli suddenly wants to random tilt in every direction the more the speed goes down, and landing is almost impossible because of the same reason. George must do the landings. No matter how perfect the Hind can be flown this knowledge cannot be transfered to the Apache - thank you very much George for always bringing me down safe and secure.

[bradmick]

2 hours ago, JetCat said:

A lot of practice and the magic trim reset button now gives good take-offs, smooth easygoing flights, even more or less stable hoovering is no problem (as long as it slowly flies forward - with 15 knots or so.)

Weather vaning, vortex ring state and other details are perfectly simulated, DCS is clearly the best helicopter simulation out there.

But hoovering with 0 knots is extremely difficult in the Apache because the heli suddenly wants to random tilt in every direction the more the speed goes down, and landing is almost impossible because of the same reason. George must do the landings. No matter how perfect the Hind can be flown this knowledge cannot be transfered to the Apache - thank you very much George for always bringing me down safe and secure.

VRS is not perfectly modeled. If it were as easy to get into VRS in the real world as it is in DCS helicopters wouldn’t be as popular as they are.

[Floyd1212]

3 hours ago, JetCat said:

But hoovering with 0 knots is extremely difficult in the Apache because the heli suddenly wants to random tilt in every direction the more the speed goes down, and landing is almost impossible because of the same reason.

This will get easier over time as you develop the muscle memory.  Don't give up and let George do it for you or you will never get there! 

[JetCat]

Unfortunately it does not get easier, the tilting over is as unpredictable like on the first day of flying even two weeks later. Starting and flying is awesome, but hoovering or doing VTOL-landings ---- these are tasks still impossible with this helicopter type.

Unlike the Hind that hoovers like a picture of a helicopter that was nailed into the air (plus also having the bonus of mini-trim-steps like an airplane available for smoothly going sideways or forward with on button-press) the Apache is impossible to be brought and kept into a stable hoover. When it comes to a halt and close to 0 knots it begins tilting into every direction like crazy, flying backwards and other things.

So a few modifications and a change of flying tactics where necessary: First step is using cable ties to shorten the spring of the joystick to make it a springless joystick that does not center anymore. Otherwise it gets incredible tiring constantly fighting against the joystick´s pushback. On most joysticks the spring cannot be removed so cable ties is an easy and quick solution.

The second step necessary is creating joystick axis curves to slow down the helicopters stick movements by -50%, and also limit the movement of every axis by -50% to make maximum pitch and roll deflection impossible. This gets rid of the erratic way to fast and uncontrollable movements of the Apache and makes every input now feel smooth and steady and predictable and heavy. The horse is now slowly tamed. Force trim is still in heavy use even with a spring-less joystick, especially to always re-center the tail rotor to changing collective main rotor torque settings.

The third step is understanding that making the Apache hoover like the Hind seems impossible, it will start random tilting in every direction at zero knots. That´s why an airspeed of at least 20 knots forward is necessary for the Apache to remain predictable and perfectly stable - so if it hates hoovering so much why even hoover at all, and not land it like a slow Flight Simulator 2020 Cessna instead from now on? The new Apachessna lands great with this trick, the only things to take care of is avoiding the vortex ring state and not becoming too fast while flying down to the runway.

Here we have the first successful night instrument flight landing in a rainy foggy night with low viz.

The ground effect stops the descend rate and makes every landing smooth as butter. On the ground with a certain amount of collective the Apache becomes very unstable again and will tilt over to one side for no reason right after touching down - so pressing the collective lever fully down half a second before the wheels touch the ground is crucial for a successful landing.

Awesome - landing it like a Cessnapache functions flawless! And it has wheels so why not using it´s wheels for this new style of landing?

And we have a perfect butter smooth landing with no broken parts.

 

[Floyd1212]

Nicely done.  Keep up the practice with hovering and it will come.  There are lots of virtual Apache pilots out there that have tamed the beast, and can execute delicate and precise maneuvers while hovering around buildings and treetops, not to mention the helipads. 

I know having higher-end hardware can be an advantage.  What worked best for me was very light springs, a 20cm extension, and a curve of 15 on the cyclic.

If flying the Apache is your dream, consider saving up for some good hardware and it will be a night and day difference.

[Hootman9104]

On 5/16/2024 at 3:54 PM, Floyd1212 said:

Nicely done.  Keep up the practice with hovering and it will come.  There are lots of virtual Apache pilots out there that have tamed the beast, and can execute delicate and precise maneuvers while hovering around buildings and treetops, not to mention the helipads. 

I know having higher-end hardware can be an advantage.  What worked best for me was very light springs, a 20cm extension, and a curve of 15 on the cyclic.

If flying the Apache is your dream, consider saving up for some good hardware and it will be a night and day difference.

This. I've had the module since day 1, and being a former retired UH-60 mech/crew chief with some IRL stick time (in H-1, H-6, and H-58) helps a lot as far as understanding the systems and how they operate and what they should and shouldn't be doing, especially the AFCS. Being developed around the same time, I think the H-60 and H-64 utilize the same industry technology from the time, which probably hasn't changed much.

It's taken a long time to learn this beast, and my only lingering issue in flight is operating her at very low speeds and transitioning to a hover.

Spent a lot of time working on curves, and also changing out my springs on the HOTAS to find the one that works best.

Still work to be fine tuned, but overall I think the H-64 handles pretty well. Trim, Trim, and Trim again is my motto. I rarely "reset" the trim until I'm preparing to land after a 2 hour mission. My takeoffs are pretty good, and flying at all speeds even max torque dipping in, out and around trees gives me little worries at all, once the trim is tuned where it needs to be. Terrain flight and NOE is no sweat.

AFCS is definitely one of the harder things for people to master, including the trim, and it just takes time a practice. Since I still need to work on the hovering bit, I'm more of a deadly wanderer on the battlefield, doing my CAS runs in Liberation between 70 and 80 knots, keeping on the move, and constantly trimming. It's just what works for me

[JetCat]

The trim should always be reset after a full landing, otherwise it will do an uncontrolled surprise tilt in one surprise direction as soon as it begins to hoover

[Hootman9104]

4 hours ago, JetCat said:

The trim should always be reset after a full landing, otherwise it will do an uncontrolled surprise tilt in one surprise direction as soon as it begins to hoover

Yup. And I sometimes reset prior to landing, otherwise I hold trim release during the landing. Reset prior to landing causes a little "jump", usually some nose up, but as long as you're ready for it and don't wait until the last second, usually not a problem. In general I like landing with a "clean" stick.

[Hootman9104]

One other trick people can try is turning on attitude hold prior to takeoff if they feel they are all over the place with the pedals picking it up.

I've had limited success doing this, as it seems to me the attitude hold is iffy at all times to begin with, but in general it tends to hold the aircraft in the direction pointed. 

Probably of no use or slightly annoying to seasoned pilots, but newer pilots might find trying that when learning takeoffs and landings to help a little bit until they truly get a feel and get their pedals adjusted just right.

[Ignition]

On 5/22/2024 at 3:42 PM, JetCat said:

The trim should always be reset after a full landing, otherwise it will do an uncontrolled surprise tilt in one surprise direction as soon as it begins to hoover

I never experienced this. The helicopter is very stable, unless you land on the grass and then it could go very wrong on take off.

I never used trim reset, it all depends on how you landed and how many times you trim the aircraft

[JetCat]

If it is perfectly trim it can of course be started with the last trim setting. I have trained to start it without any trim for over a month daily now - that´s why I personally find it more easy to start it in default mode

[Schlomo1933]

I real live condition, the wind will change every second. So your trim reset will be somewhere after a few minutes, but not there where the Apache is stable. 
 

Hold down the trim button and make really fine adjustments. That’s all.