Helicopter controls - force feedback question (Huey)

[CommandT]

Hi all, 

I have a question for those who either know or have flown helicopters in real life. 

I'm setting up the force feedback for my new set up for the Huey and I'm wondering, how loose/ tight the cyclic generally feels in real life? On the ground, if you deflect it full in any axis, will it spring back to center or will it keep it's position where you leave it more or less? 

Might be a silly question but I've never flown any helicopter in real life so I'm wondering how I should set up the force feedback for my stick. I imagine the helo cyclics in general to be relatively free in terms of movement without having to apply much force, and without wanting to self-centre very much? Or am I wrong?

Many Thanks! 

[EvilBert VR]

Like in almost every helicopter ( at least the ones I have flown) there's no such thing as a re-centering. It will basicly stay in the position where you bring it to. So a spring loaded joystick is pretty useless and unrealistic when it comes to fly helicopters.
In regards of the "stickfeel": As spoken for the Huey, it's pretty soft. You feel a marginal counterpressure when starting the movement. Once over it the stick moves very smooth until you stop it at any position. You could flick the stick with a finger at any position and the stick would wander through up to it's mechanical stop.

In other helicopters featuring electro-mechanical trimming systems the feel is a little different. The haptical mechanical feedback from the rotorsystem is less present but that might be a subjective impression.

Cheers

[UncleStains]

I asked my dad, who flew Hueys in the Army 40+ years ago, this same question. He told me that the spring force is pretty light and he rarely used force trim. I got a VPForce Rhino a couple weeks ago and I intend to get my dad over to try it out soon and give me some feedback. I will report back when that happens. Hopefully he can remember!

Edited February 7 by UncleStains

[HansPeter1981]

Hello there,

 

5500+ hours in "real life" currently flying the 407 Winter and 212 summer. So pretty close to Huey and upcomming OH58. The only time you have "force feedback" is when you turn the hydraulics off, or push against the activated force trim in the 212.  So like Evel Bert was saying, no self centering and  very easy to move at least for the cyclic. In dcs I have an extension + weakest spring on my Gunfighter which is a pretty satisfying feel for me.

So other then in smaller models without hydraulics you dont feel much other then some correlation between cylic and collective. Or some self centering on the anti torque pedals (unless also hydraulicly boosted).

 

Just to give you an idea about real life:

So if I let the cyclic go it would fall with gravity in the direction its being displaced unless enough friction is applied to prevent that.

Now that I talk about it, the 212 not sure about the huey or if its modelled in DCS has a stabilizer bar on top of the rotorhead and you can certainly feel that on your cyclic inputs. Quite some lag and some travel for certain changes.

407 instead because of its semi rigid rotorhead the cyclic is super "touchy" and responsive.

Collective instead would travel with your cyclic or certain manouvers, but I fly with a ton of friction on it, so if I dont move it it doesnt move...  the only thing you feel there is the resitance of your applied friction...

 

Maybe worth mentioning... I stopped using trim with DCS Helicopters, because in reality you would trim your cyclic which means it will hold its postion or gets displaced with the trim movement.

That would be the only meaningful application here for "force feedback" I can imagine.

Hopefully that was not too confusing.

 

Happy flying...

 

 

[CommandT]

21 hours ago, HansPeter1981 said:

Hello there,

 

5500+ hours in "real life" currently flying the 407 Winter and 212 summer. So pretty close to Huey and upcomming OH58. The only time you have "force feedback" is when you turn the hydraulics off, or push against the activated force trim in the 212.  So like Evel Bert was saying, no self centering and  very easy to move at least for the cyclic. In dcs I have an extension + weakest spring on my Gunfighter which is a pretty satisfying feel for me.

So other then in smaller models without hydraulics you dont feel much other then some correlation between cylic and collective. Or some self centering on the anti torque pedals (unless also hydraulicly boosted).

 

Just to give you an idea about real life:

So if I let the cyclic go it would fall with gravity in the direction its being displaced unless enough friction is applied to prevent that.

Now that I talk about it, the 212 not sure about the huey or if its modelled in DCS has a stabilizer bar on top of the rotorhead and you can certainly feel that on your cyclic inputs. Quite some lag and some travel for certain changes.

407 instead because of its semi rigid rotorhead the cyclic is super "touchy" and responsive.

Collective instead would travel with your cyclic or certain manouvers, but I fly with a ton of friction on it, so if I dont move it it doesnt move...  the only thing you feel there is the resitance of your applied friction...

 

Maybe worth mentioning... I stopped using trim with DCS Helicopters, because in reality you would trim your cyclic which means it will hold its postion or gets displaced with the trim movement.

That would be the only meaningful application here for "force feedback" I can imagine.

Hopefully that was not too confusing.

 

Happy flying...

 

 

 

On 2/6/2024 at 11:24 PM, EvilBert VR said:

Like in almost every helicopter ( at least the ones I have flown) there's no such thing as a re-centering. It will basicly stay in the position where you bring it to. So a spring loaded joystick is pretty useless and unrealistic when it comes to fly helicopters.
In regards of the "stickfeel": As spoken for the Huey, it's pretty soft. You feel a marginal counterpressure when starting the movement. Once over it the stick moves very smooth until you stop it at any position. You could flick the stick with a finger at any position and the stick would wander through up to it's mechanical stop.

In other helicopters featuring electro-mechanical trimming systems the feel is a little different. The haptical mechanical feedback from the rotorsystem is less present but that might be a subjective impression.

Cheers

 

21 hours ago, UncleStains said:

I asked my dad, who flew Hueys in the Army 40+ years ago, this same question. He told me that the spring force is pretty light and he rarely used force trim. I got a VPForce Rhino a couple weeks ago and I intend to get my dad over to try it out soon and give me some feedback. I will report back when that happens. Hopefully he can remember!

 

Thanks a bunch guys! yep, with the FFB joystick I now have I can simulate the stick not self-centering, and I can get the trim switch to have it "freeze" or find a new neutral point in that position which is pretty cool! But then it sort make me think that having a trim switch at all is pretty pointless if the stick has no tendency to move back and doesn't really have much resistance. Might as well just lightly keep your hand on it in the new position and keep going. 

Thanks again! I'll set up the force feedback so there isn't any natural self-centering effect... and I assume that doesn't really change much when flying at higher speeds? 

[jpuk]

On 2/7/2024 at 5:49 PM, HansPeter1981 said:

Hello there,

 

5500+ hours in "real life" currently flying the 407 Winter and 212 summer. So pretty close to Huey and upcomming OH58. The only time you have "force feedback" is when you turn the hydraulics off, or push against the activated force trim in the 212.  So like Evel Bert was saying, no self centering and  very easy to move at least for the cyclic. In dcs I have an extension + weakest spring on my Gunfighter which is a pretty satisfying feel for me.

So other then in smaller models without hydraulics you dont feel much other then some correlation between cylic and collective. Or some self centering on the anti torque pedals (unless also hydraulicly boosted).

 

Just to give you an idea about real life:

So if I let the cyclic go it would fall with gravity in the direction its being displaced unless enough friction is applied to prevent that.

Now that I talk about it, the 212 not sure about the huey or if its modelled in DCS has a stabilizer bar on top of the rotorhead and you can certainly feel that on your cyclic inputs. Quite some lag and some travel for certain changes.

407 instead because of its semi rigid rotorhead the cyclic is super "touchy" and responsive.

Collective instead would travel with your cyclic or certain manouvers, but I fly with a ton of friction on it, so if I dont move it it doesnt move...  the only thing you feel there is the resitance of your applied friction...

 

Maybe worth mentioning... I stopped using trim with DCS Helicopters, because in reality you would trim your cyclic which means it will hold its postion or gets displaced with the trim movement.

That would be the only meaningful application here for "force feedback" I can imagine.

Hopefully that was not too confusing.

 

Happy flying...

 

 

What stick are you using for DCS? I removed the main spring in my TM Warthog stick. Very good.

[HansPeter1981]

Gunfighter IV ‘Modern Combat Edition’ Ultimate - S-Extended 200mm