Do we have NATO Cold war 4th Gen Fighter with 80s avionic to face Mig-29A?

[Viper33]

Right now the F-14 is probably the closest era-specific contemporary. F-4E might be too but it will be far inferior with the APQ-120.

[F-2]

Didn’t the RDI enter service in 1987? I know the mirage 2000C has some extra 90s add ons but it’s still pretty fundamentally similar to the late 80s aircraft. The mirage 2000 RDM were never really wanted children (the French were arm twisted into buying to boost export prospects) and cast off to Djibouti and as far as I know not really planned for the defense of France in a Cold War gone hot. RDM had lots of issues that I don’t know if were actually resolved by the time RDI entered service. RDM is also pretty similar to the F-1 radar and used the super 530f in French service (while export aircraft got the D) and the two are probably very similar as BVR platforms. With the smaller engine they had performance somewhat between the F-1 and big engine mirage.

[pepin1234]

The point is first the Multistage Improvement Program 1 (MSIP-I), started at 1983 and started to be really operational from 1985. As DCS have not ECM implemented 100%, ECM is not relevant at this point. Not the case for the radar warning receiver. In that case there are some important questions. Is the RWR ALC-56C RWR from MSIP-I capable to detect R-27R SAHR missiles guidance in all stages, as current FC3 F-15C do from the very first moment R-27R leave the rail??? (supposing our F-15C is using the Multistage Improvement Program 2 M, MSIP-II M) Why Soviet Mig-29A should be fighting modernized programs post-cold war? supposed all the information for R-27 taken from ex WARSAW pact countries after 1992 (Now NATO members) was used in further post soviets' improvements of MSIP-II M available after 1993. Its fair keeps a Cold War soviet facing a Post Cold War F-15C with MSIP-II M? In real life they (Soviets) never were close to do so after 1993, but the Serbian and Iragi due the real conflicts. After all that been told, Question is ED is making an Mig-29A to keep the post-cold war Iraq, Serbia conflicts simulation?? or we are allowed to have F-4, F-16A and F-15A/C with the respective MSIP-I from 1985 without detecting every movement of the soviet hardware on the air as we have seen in the current DCS modules?? This is Key to create a fair situational awareness, otherwise we will keep piloting Mig-29A as puppies to bring fun to the post-Cold-War jet Era.

 

F-15 Eagle (globalsecurity.org)

F-15 Eagle > Air Force > Fact Sheet Display (af.mil)

F-15 Eagle Archives | Air & Space Forces Magazine (airandspaceforces.com)

 

Edited February 12 by pepin1234

[marmor]

27 minutes ago, pepin1234 said:

such manual are available at the same level of MiG-29A manuals do, and ED declared themselves they are making MiG-29A from a manual document

From what I know, there isn't a 9.13 manual available online like the 9.12s. Especially one which contains detailed information on systems such as the бортовой комплекс САМОЛЕТОВОЖДЕНИЯ, ПРИЦЕЛИВАНИЯ И УПРАВЛЕНИЯ ВООРУЖЕНИЕМ САМОЛЕТА МиГ-29Б (СУВ-29Э и сопрягаемые системы) which has detailed information regarding the systems. And I don't think stuff like the guidance method(CW) would've been changed, perhaps on the coding and frequencies to reduce jamming. But I've never read about CW dropped. Which is what gives a launch warning

 

[F-2]

6 hours ago, pepin1234 said:

That’s why URSS made an 9.13 modernization variant MiG-29S, such manual are available at the same level of MiG-29A manuals do, and ED declared themselves they are making MiG-29A from a manual document. Your post tend to make people think what ED simulate from Soviets, is what was leaked in espionage, such is very sad because ED choose Mig-29A instead Mig-29S for some reason…

So for F-16 block 50 from 2007 should fight in DCS skies what was spied and leaked from 80s and if ED decide make F-16A will find a spied MiG-29A variant instead the updated MiG-29S with also manuals available on the internet. I Guess ED choose what they want. 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, marmor said:

From what I know, there isn't a 9.13 manual available online like the 9.12s. Especially one which contains detailed information on systems such as the бортовой комплекс САМОЛЕТОВОЖДЕНИЯ, ПРИЦЕЛИВАНИЯ И УПРАВЛЕНИЯ ВООРУЖЕНИЕМ САМОЛЕТА МиГ-29Б (СУВ-29Э и сопрягаемые системы) which has detailed information regarding the systems. And I don't think stuff like the guidance method(CW) would've been changed, perhaps on the coding and frequencies to reduce jamming. But I've never read about CW dropped. Which is what gives a launch warning

 

If there is one it’s news to me though it might be possible to get one through legal means

5 hours ago, JunMcKill said:

You are right, the case of Tolkachev, who gave a lot of info to US about the soviet missiles and radars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Tolkachev

 

As I understand it from reading Billion Dollar Spy, Tolkachev only compromised the specs of N019’s target recognition system and made the CIA aware it existed. Most of the hard documents he provided were related to various versions of SAPFIR and ZASLON. I do recall reading that N019 was pretty poor against ECM pods of the era.

[pepin1234]

Another quick question. 

what about F-4, F-5, Mirage F-1 and older 3Th Gen fighters. They also will have the R-27R quick response awareness on RWR? They have MSIP-2 M as well?

I think ED should tune up DCS core and put apart what we actually have from FC3 MiG-29A. Things should be clear up in RWR depending what Era and generation fighter will fight MiG-29A. I’m talking about how 3rd Gen fighter will react against R-27R. 
 

We already know ED will work in a new R-27R implementation. I hope that includes what opponent RWR see, depending on what RWR see on respective Fighters generation. And that have to do with DCS core.

Edited February 14 by pepin1234

[Kang]

Quote

Do we have NATO Cold war 4th Gen Fighter with 80s avionic to face Mig-29A?

Since when is 'reasonable matchup of playable modules or existing AI assets' any consideration in DCS?

[marmor]

20 hours ago, pepin1234 said:

what about F-4, F-5, Mirage F-1 and older 3Th Gen fighters. They also will have the R-27R quick response awareness on RWR? They have MSIP-2 M as well?

You don't need a suite with MSIP 1000000LM 2K20 ENHANCED LIMITED GOLD EDITION to notice CW( within the frequency it looks at) in your direction. Knowing that CW was typically used solely for missile guidance, you can just declare there's a missile in the air.

Now, to identify the frequency hops for guidance, frequency used, modulation and say that's X plane guiding a missile instead of Y is another thing. To detect it would be a matter of frequency bands that it sees. Like the MiG29 vs a phantom guiding a SAHR. Phantom will guide with a nonstop CW between 10.050-10.250 GHz with 350KHz modulation/85 Hz FM. A MiG29 will send for 20ms a HPRF/MPRF waveform then for 30ms will send CW in X band frequency with 2 subcarrier frequencies at 208 and 228K Hz depending on guidance instructions. 

Old rusty RWR which can only tell if its CW or pulsed will see and show 2 emitters(AI-CW) from the phantom(LPRF/HPRF waveform and CW), for the Mig 29 it'll see 2(MPRF/HPRF and CW) switching between each other. Here it probably show both. Probably it will not be able to tell the difference between a phantom or Mig29 radar.

MSIP 1000000LM 2K20 ENHANCED LIMITED GOLD EDITION will know the modulation and frequency from the phantom and if they come from same direction, declare that the F4 is firing a missile at you. Showing 1 emitter. With the MiG29, it will recognize the switching pattern and/or frequency modulation from the CW and therefore declare that a specific Mig29 is guiding a missile. Showing you 1 emitter.

[pepin1234]

6 hours ago, marmor said:

You don't need a suite with MSIP 1000000LM 2K20 ENHANCED LIMITED GOLD EDITION to notice CW( within the frequency it looks at) in your direction. Knowing that CW was typically used solely for missile guidance, you can just declare there's a missile in the air.

Now, to identify the frequency hops for guidance, frequency used, modulation and say that's X plane guiding a missile instead of Y is another thing. To detect it would be a matter of frequency bands that it sees. Like the MiG29 vs a phantom guiding a SAHR. Phantom will guide with a nonstop CW between 10.050-10.250 GHz with 350KHz modulation/85 Hz FM. A MiG29 will send for 20ms a HPRF/MPRF waveform then for 30ms will send CW in X band frequency with 2 subcarrier frequencies at 208 and 228K Hz depending on guidance instructions. 

Old rusty RWR which can only tell if its CW or pulsed will see and show 2 emitters(AI-CW) from the phantom(LPRF/HPRF waveform and CW), for the Mig 29 it'll see 2(MPRF/HPRF and CW) switching between each other. Here it probably show both. Probably it will not be able to tell the difference between a phantom or Mig29 radar.

MSIP 1000000LM 2K20 ENHANCED LIMITED GOLD EDITION will know the modulation and frequency from the phantom and if they come from same direction, declare that the F4 is firing a missile at you. Showing 1 emitter. With the MiG29, it will recognize the switching pattern and/or frequency modulation from the CW and therefore declare that a specific Mig29 is guiding a missile. Showing you 1 emitter.

The thread war merged to Chit Chat sub forum. They always do that when someone is asking for something they don’t want to do. So yeah is clear ED will do exactly what you are explaining. Thanks for open a new user to explain all. Enjoy hunting the Mig-29. Have fun with R-27 mocking. 

[draconus]

On 2/13/2024 at 6:11 PM, pepin1234 said:

is very sad because ED choose Mig-29A instead Mig-29S for some reason…

... I Guess ED choose what they want. 

Almost like ED develops DCS or something. MiG-29A 9.12 was hinted as possible to be modeled in FF since a good few years. Not S, not M, not OVT, not even MiG-29WTF - as these were apparently too new, lacking legally obtainable docs and SMEs.

On 2/14/2024 at 2:00 AM, pepin1234 said:

We already know ED will work in a new R-27R implementation. I hope that includes what opponent RWR see, depending on what RWR see on respective Fighters generation. And that have to do with DCS core.

Why would you expect RWR changes with SARH missile (R-27R) performance and guidance changes? The missile itself does not emit RF toward its target. It's the aircraft radar that do the magic - tracking, ranging and sending data to the missile.

Detecting SARH launch is not a rocket science, LOL. Even when early RWRs were only few lights for signal direction and/or power with converted audio you could probably hear the difference. Of course it depends on the system. Not saying current DCS is perfect, there's always something to improve. Just wait and see what HB cooks for F-4 and early F-14A.

On 2/12/2024 at 5:53 AM, pepin1234 said:

This is Key to create a fair situational awareness, otherwise we will keep piloting Mig-29A as puppies to bring fun to the post-Cold-War jet Era.

The key is to fly realistic missions if you want to enjoy DCS simulating anything resembling RL - this is rare case in MP. It's also not about history only but mostly about fictional but possible conflicts.

Edited February 16 by draconus