Probable F-4E Social Media Backlash

[Lt_Jaeger]

7 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

May I ask why you have many? Do they break often? 

Yea the deadzone thing might be tough, but I still have my VKB with which to switch back and forth. Maybe one day there will be a good FFB stick or a kit that won't break the bank.

OK, it will break the bank, but considering how much money I spend on experiments (WH, VKB, MSFFB) I think it is reasonable priced, the Rhino FFB.

I will never ever go back to anything else. The hardware is still a little on the hobby side (3D prints and wooden base) - very well done though and taking the maximum possible out of it, I guess, but the software really brings this stick alive. All the options for tuning you got, just great. Yes, I don't need to bring on 25kg of force (I know, not the correct measurement) but the around 5kg ish makes a totally different way of feeling and "flying" the DCS Mods.

I almost exclusively use the F-14 and I think I have my profile tuned well. The g something function for example, raises the force you need to apply to the stick with the raise of G. Since then, yes, I need to fight the plane a little more, but no more Over G in yanking the stick, and the feedback is enough to really reproduce a given G thru feeling. No more force needed pinning you to the seat (even so, in reduced form for me, that would be the holy grail), to actually feel how you are doing. The extra effects like guns, control surfaces moving and stuff like that are that much toned down, so that in addition with the jet seat, gives me the best experience for a desktop pilot, without going x deg of freedom motion platform.

Worth every penny

[Stackup]

2 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Sure, but it depends on the mission if that's possible. I have really struggled in A2G in the paid F-5 campaign, because e.g. you have to destroy most of a large convoy with AAA and Iglas using only 5 bombs and rockets, the F-5 barely flies with that loadout, and the wingman AI is bugged and they don't attack anything. This is an example of requiring unreasonable accuracy  

This is why I like Reflected's campaigns.  The primary win condition of each mission is pretty much to survive and get back to base, just like real life.  It doesn't matter how many planes you shoot down or if you hit the target or never even dropped your bombs.  I'm looking forward to see what he does with the F-4 as he hinted at something to do with Paradise Lost, but said a full Vietnam campaign would have to wait for a Vietnam map.

[MAXsenna]

May I ask why you have many? Do they break often? 
Yea the deadzone thing might be tough, but I still have my VKB with which to switch back and forth. Maybe one day there will be a good FFB stick or a kit that won't break the bank.

All are second hand. All are working. One I got for free. The others just in case they break. And I might mate two and two together some day.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

Any deadzone is a dealbreaker for me, I hate them.
Also after thinking about this quite a lot, I think FF is far more important for racing sims than flight sims. I've driven real track cars and done a lot of race simming and the tech has come leaps and bounds in the 25 years I've been doing sims. 
In real aircraft, I think now pilots are used to it, they don't really miss the feedback through the stick that much in anything 1960s+, though like others who've commented, there is a wealth of information coming to you via your seat on g-forces, rotation, slide slip, buffet, structural limits, as well as the sounds from slipstream, engine and stresses and so on. (At least we can have good audio in sims)

Agree with the deadzone. It's waaaaaaay easier to fly helicopters with FFB. And trimming airplanes are just more natural.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[MAXsenna]

I have none of the trainers. Those and the HIP and Black Shark are the only modules left for me.(oh and that biplane acrobatics thing)

You'll get there. I forgot about the CEII. It might have nice FFB too.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[DD_Friar]

Anyone who has watched the Mover and Gonky Show (+Wombat, all hail WOMBAT) on a regular basis will know that they did these videos for FUN. They were NOT an exhibition on fighter tactics or aircraft flight model evaluation. They are just two friends, one using kit at his desk, the other does not even have his own rig and has to go to a store that has a sim pit set-up in order to fly.

 

[Johnny Dioxin]

Not sure about the stick dead zones - I had to put them in (usually never did) because my stick(s) was tripping the AP off in the A-10C. This was an issue with the G940 and my current VPC T50 CM2. That was with the 'softer' set-up, though - I just switched to the stiff springs and cams and have yet to test it, but I suspect I can ditch the dead zones for X/Y again now.

Was baffling me for months, why the AP was constantly disabling itself!

 

PS - as for the topic title, I think it's a total non-issue. Who is going to buy a plane without knowing anything about it (at this price, too) and then whinge that it isn't up to 21st century spec? No-one with any kind of credibility, that's for sure.

Edited February 15, 2024 by Johnny Dioxin

[MichaelJWP15]

7 hours ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

OK, it will break the bank, but considering how much money I spend on experiments (WH, VKB, MSFFB) I think it is reasonable priced, the Rhino FFB.

Worth every penny

 

Ok, you may have emptied my wallet a bit more as I checked out some of the videos on the Rhino and I have to say it looks very good  May have to give it a try…

Personally I justify all this money as I used to fly GA for real at a cost of well over $2000 per month, this is all cheap in comparison!

[SgtPappy]

8 hours ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

OK, it will break the bank, but considering how much money I spend on experiments (WH, VKB, MSFFB) I think it is reasonable priced, the Rhino FFB.

Sounds convincing! It will be a consideration for the future, for sure. I looked this up as well and hope to make this a future project in a man cave or something. The FFSB stick in combination with the F-4 might just launch the next stage to this addiction.

13 minutes ago, MichaelJWP15 said:

Ok, you may have emptied my wallet a bit more as I checked out some of the videos on the Rhino and I have to say it looks very good  May have to give it a try…

Personally I justify all this money as I used to fly GA for real at a cost of well over $2000 per month, this is all cheap in comparison!

Dammit now why did you have to put that out into the universe, now I'm seriously considering it...

Come to think of it, my membership to the gliding club was far more expensive than a Rhino FFB kit.

[PawlaczGMD]

10 hours ago, Stackup said:

This is why I like Reflected's campaigns.  The primary win condition of each mission is pretty much to survive and get back to base, just like real life.  It doesn't matter how many planes you shoot down or if you hit the target or never even dropped your bombs.  I'm looking forward to see what he does with the F-4 as he hinted at something to do with Paradise Lost, but said a full Vietnam campaign would have to wait for a Vietnam map.

Yeah, that's a very good way to do it. As long as the wingman AI does SOMETHING, and I do my best, it's still enjoyable to fly the mission, and you're not frustrated by arbitrary targets like "you must kill 8/10 vehicles, 7/10 will not do". 

[Guest]

Mover . Thats all i have to say about that guy.

[markturner1960]

On 2/14/2024 at 4:32 PM, Nodak said:

Think sales would always be dismal, many don't like the way they are implemented, the forces are generally too weak for flight and most of the effects shaking the stick would actually be felt through the arse, not the hand doing the flying and shooting, why the many invest in seat shakers instead.  Also if your competitive the last thing you want is something shaking up your shooting hit percentages.  We all can agree tactile feedback is important, not everyone will agree in the how its achieved.  I'd love a full length stick that gave actual levels of resistance and the stall buffets from airflow of a simulated warbird, but that day ain't here, and MS sidewinder levels don't cut it.    

You have clearly not heard of or flown with a Rhino FFB stick.........the best bit of hardware you can buy for DCS.....waiting list is around 6 months, they cant make them quick enough, sales are that good. It does everything you describe above and more. 

[MichaelJWP15]

On 2/15/2024 at 1:56 PM, SgtPappy said:

Sounds convincing! It will be a consideration for the future, for sure. I looked this up as well and hope to make this a future project in a man cave or something. The FFSB stick in combination with the F-4 might just launch the next stage to this addiction.

Dammit now why did you have to put that out into the universe, now I'm seriously considering it...

Come to think of it, my membership to the gliding club was far more expensive than a Rhino FFB kit.

Main issue for me is I don't have a man cave unfortunately, so all my gear has to go on my regular desktop. This is fine with a standard base but the FFB base would make the stick too high... hmm at the moment I am thinking I may need a custom work desk with a recess and cover where the Rhino can hide during the day.

[=475FG= Dawger]

28 minutes ago, MichaelJWP15 said:

Main issue for me is I don't have a man cave unfortunately, so all my gear has to go on my regular desktop. This is fine with a standard base but the FFB base would make the stick too high... hmm at the moment I am thinking I may need a custom work desk with a recess and cover where the Rhino can hide during the day.

It has since been retired (partially) but I built this 6 years ago. 
 

 

[MichaelJWP15]

5 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

It has since been retired (partially) but I built this 6 years ago...

Nice work  though while you're hiding everything away you're still using up the floor area of a full seat and pit. In my case I need to use my normal office chair, rudder pedals under the desk. Not ideal but been doing it for years and it's an ok compromise so far..

[SgtPappy]

2 hours ago, MichaelJWP15 said:

Main issue for me is I don't have a man cave unfortunately, so all my gear has to go on my regular desktop. This is fine with a standard base but the FFB base would make the stick too high... hmm at the moment I am thinking I may need a custom work desk with a recess and cover where the Rhino can hide during the day.

I'm in the same position right now. That's why I hope i'll really like the FFB2 on my desktop.

I only hope the future will include home ownership for that man cave

Edited February 17, 2024 by SgtPappy

[Lt_Jaeger]

I have to remove the rhino also from my desk, I use a monstertech mount and the stick is right where I see him in VR

Edited February 17, 2024 by Lt_Jaeger

[MichaelJWP15]

5 minutes ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

I habe to remove the rhino also from my desk, I use a monstertech mount and the stick is right where I see him in VR...

Cool. That may be the solution, can I see also a support leg underneath the Rhino, is that non-standard?

[Lt_Jaeger]

Yeap, I made it myself to add some support.

I run the rhino with quiet some power/force and that thing brings a little more stability. I made it adjustable but locked it with a additional screw, because I never did changed the height. Might do so as soon as I get my hands on the F-4 and adjust everything for that beast. 

 

So basically a piece of wood cut to length would do the same thing. 

[MichaelJWP15]

On 2/17/2024 at 5:05 PM, Lt_Jaeger said:

Yeap, I made it myself to add some support.

I run the rhino with quiet some power/force and that thing brings a little more stability. I made it adjustable but locked it with a additional screw, because I never did changed the height. Might do so as soon as I get my hands on the F-4 and adjust everything for that beast. 

 

So basically a piece of wood cut to length would do the same thing. 

Nice - if you get the chance, photos of that support leg underneath the Rhino would be cool, but no rush, I am on a long waiting list for the device!

[JB3DG]

On 2/12/2024 at 3:56 AM, leonardo_c said:

this is an open point I have discussed with many players and it applies to other sims.

I am not real airplane pilot but I have experience in sports driving so I will use an analogy with track driving and racing sims.

in real racing driving you drive a lot more with your seat of the pants than with your hands...and most corrections happen instinctively even before anything happens "visually".

on the other hand, when we drive using our small screens all players will react to things "when they see it" and usually, in real life, this will be just too late...when you have enough oversteer to be visually seeing the oversteer, even if a few degrees, you have already lost control and at this point you are just a passenger. I'm talking about track prepared cars not your "out-of-the-dealer fast sedan bmw m3 or porsche 911".

ffb steering wheels can mitigate this a lot but then you have the hardcore fanatics who will say that "car X usually should spin without warning because it was a b*tch and that's how it should be represented ingame and you need to learn to drive it and so this game is unrealistic and the devs are very bad and let's open bugz and let's youtube content about it etcetcetc",  we know the drill.

same applies to flight sims. When we read from pilots that "plane X did not give any stall warning" we will have hardcore fanatics asking for the plane to be modelled accordingly which from a computer game perspective makes things horrible, in my personal opinion.

hard time for devs to balance playability and fidelity. at the very bottom, dcs is still a computer game.

things get even more tricky when taking into account that a small movement on our plastic stick is equivalent to a large movement from a metal stick rooted at your feet with hydraulics, shaking with the plane, etc.

 

The first time I sat in a full cockpit sim at Sheppard AFB along with the VR sims I worked on for the T-38C and got to try their super heavy active force feedback sticks was when I really realized how your average desktop simmer isn't getting anything really transferable beyond button pushing and number memories. Totally different experience when you have $20000+ hardware involved.
 

On 2/15/2024 at 12:39 AM, Lt_Jaeger said:

OK, it will break the bank, but considering how much money I spend on experiments (WH, VKB, MSFFB) I think it is reasonable priced, the Rhino FFB.

I will never ever go back to anything else. The hardware is still a little on the hobby side (3D prints and wooden base) - very well done though and taking the maximum possible out of it, I guess, but the software really brings this stick alive. All the options for tuning you got, just great. Yes, I don't need to bring on 25kg of force (I know, not the correct measurement) but the around 5kg ish makes a totally different way of feeling and "flying" the DCS Mods.

I almost exclusively use the F-14 and I think I have my profile tuned well. The g something function for example, raises the force you need to apply to the stick with the raise of G. Since then, yes, I need to fight the plane a little more, but no more Over G in yanking the stick, and the feedback is enough to really reproduce a given G thru feeling. No more force needed pinning you to the seat (even so, in reduced form for me, that would be the holy grail), to actually feel how you are doing. The extra effects like guns, control surfaces moving and stuff like that are that much toned down, so that in addition with the jet seat, gives me the best experience for a desktop pilot, without going x deg of freedom motion platform.

Worth every penny

 

I suspect most desktop sticks would snap if they had to deal with the actual stick forces in the real jet.

 

Edited February 21, 2024 by JB3DG

[=475FG= Dawger]

6 hours ago, JB3DG said:

The first time I sat in a full cockpit sim at Sheppard AFB along with the VR sims I worked on for the T-38C and got to try their super heavy active force feedback sticks was when I really realized how your average desktop simmer isn't getting anything really transferable beyond button pushing and number memories. Totally different experience when you have $20000+ hardware involved.
 

I suspect most desktop sticks would snap if they had to deal with the actual stick forces in the real jet.

 

 

Its only 40 lbs or so. 80 lbs is the worst case. I think its the stick actuator that would fail before the hardware. Pizza curls ain't gonna cut it for FFB at a realistic level but any reasonably fit 70 year old can handle realistic stick forces.

[Tiger-II]

I didn't read the entire thread, but being real former military pilots, did you consider that they may actually be flying badly on purpose, so they don't accidentally give anything away?

I watch Mover's YT channel quite often, and if I recall correctly he flew Red Air. If you know anything about that, you'll know not just anyone can do that job. IOW, Mover is a damn fine pilot IRL, even if he is very modest about it. I wouldn't rate his skill flying the sim while recording himself for a YT video - he's not going to risk telling you anything, hence the poor handling.

[Cab]

5 minutes ago, Tiger-II said:

I didn't read the entire thread, but being real former military pilots, did you consider that they may actually be flying badly on purpose, so they don't accidentally give anything away?

Mover has actually said exactly this on numerous occasions. Maybe not so much "flying badly", but not flying like it's for real. Personally, I just assume they don't spend enough BFM time in DCS to get good at it in the game.

[freehand]

4 hours ago, Tiger-II said:

I didn't read the entire thread, but being real former military pilots, did you consider that they may actually be flying badly on purpose, so they don't accidentally give anything away?

I watch Mover's YT channel quite often, and if I recall correctly he flew Red Air. If you know anything about that, you'll know not just anyone can do that job. IOW, Mover is a damn fine pilot IRL, even if he is very modest about it. I wouldn't rate his skill flying the sim while recording himself for a YT video - he's not going to risk telling you anything, hence the poor handling.

Wags from ED has been on their channel a few times and give there time talking about DCS but apparently because they do not take the game seriously some people don't like them haha pathetic. 

Edited February 22, 2024 by freehand

[Iron Sights]

The F-4E will be fine and yes there will be those that complain. My advice would be go fly the F-1 or the MiG-21 and that will give you some idea of how much more limited it is. However, it’s not the plane, it’s the pilot right?