rear gunner weapons... M60? M134D? M240, ok... WE NEED GAU21 or MK19!

[hannibal]

some heavy fire power for chinook please. 50 cal GAU21... or MK19 nade launcher....

[hannibal]

ok.. looks like 50 cal is more of a CH53 stallion thing...

cant hurt to add  to wish list...

happy for M240 and any type of player controlled weapons!

Edited April 24, 2024 by hannibal

[ANDR0ID]

Good to see M-60 and M-240 options.... hope we'll also see M-134s as an option, and maybe GAU-21 or M3 .50 cal, even if just on the ramp. 

I would also really like to see the addition of two more gunner positions (total of 5 possible) with left and right rear gunner positions as seen on some Chinook variants. 

Edited April 24, 2024 by ANDR0ID

[jubuttib]

Would definitely love any kind of .50 BMG (or a nade launcher), unfortunately the 7.62mm guns just seem to underperform against vehicles. I know it's not a very powerful cartridge as such, but even the M134 spewing out a torrent of lead is lacking in impact.

Meanwhile the Kord gunners on the Hip and Hind absolutely DEMOLISH things. Love those guys.

[hannibal]

On 4/28/2024 at 6:18 PM, jubuttib said:

Would definitely love any kind of .50 BMG (or a nade launcher), unfortunately the 7.62mm guns just seem to underperform against vehicles. I know it's not a very powerful cartridge as such, but even the M134 spewing out a torrent of lead is lacking in impact.

Meanwhile the Kord gunners on the Hip and Hind absolutely DEMOLISH things. Love those guys.

yea.. 7.62 dealing with infantry is weird also. i mean to deplete a infantry up to 80-100 percent damage is unrealistic... seemingly hundreds of rounds in some missions lol

[Johnny Dioxin]

Actually we need a GPMG (Gimpy)! I don't know how the GPMG (if there is one) in DCS performs, but in real life we used them to knock down walls the enemy were hiding behind. Plenty powerful enough.

As for 7.62mm, well the reason the British Army used it for so many years was because it would put the man down with one bullet, rather than have him still running at you, though full of holes.

[jubuttib]

On 5/6/2024 at 12:01 PM, Johnny Dioxin said:

Actually we need a GPMG (Gimpy)! I don't know how the GPMG (if there is one) in DCS performs, but in real life we used them to knock down walls the enemy were hiding behind. Plenty powerful enough.

As for 7.62mm, well the reason the British Army used it for so many years was because it would put the man down with one bullet, rather than have him still running at you, though full of holes.

GPMG is more of a role than a specific gun (you probably know this but explaining in case someone who doesn't stumbles on this), where the same basic machine gun is used to fill various roles, like a bipod utilized LMG, a tripod mounted MMG, or a vehicle mounted gun on a jeep, a truck, an APC/IFV, a commander's gun on a tank, a helicopter door gun, etc.

The M60 and M240 (an FN MAG variant) have both been used as GPMGs, on the Russian side we have the PK/PKM line which is also featured in-game (Hip rear gunner IIRC). They're most commonly using a battle rifle cartridge like 7.62x51mm NATO or 7.62x54mmR etc. If you specifically mean the L7A2 GPMG the Brits use, that's an FN MAG in 7.62x51mm NATO, should basically behave ~identically to the M60 or M240 from a damage perspective.

Yeah they should be plenty to cause damage, and the M134 minigun certainly should fairly easily take out most unarmored vehicles with just a light burst. In-game though it tends to be really damn hard to get anything swept up with them, even with the ridiculously accurate door gunners. The Kord or the M2 on the other hand absolutely clean house.

For funzies, here's an M60 in 7.62x51mm NATO going against a simulated cinderblock wall with tracers. Fun times.

EDIT: Searching YT a bit, eventually found a video of 7.62x39mm (so way less powerful intermediate cartridge) taking down a piece of cinder block wall filled with concrete. Did take a while, but under 100 rounds still...

Edited May 8, 2024 by jubuttib

[Johnny Dioxin]

This is what I was referring to - designated the GMPG (nicknamed Gimpy) in the British Army - as I mentioned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_MAG

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0096.html

It has a fearsome reputation, with good reason.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2024 by Johnny Dioxin

[hannibal]

On 5/8/2024 at 6:46 PM, jubuttib said:

GPMG is more of a role than a specific gun (you probably know this but explaining in case someone who doesn't stumbles on this), where the same basic machine gun is used to fill various roles, like a bipod utilized LMG, a tripod mounted MMG, or a vehicle mounted gun on a jeep, a truck, an APC/IFV, a commander's gun on a tank, a helicopter door gun, etc.

The M60 and M240 (an FN MAG variant) have both been used as GPMGs, on the Russian side we have the PK/PKM line which is also featured in-game (Hip rear gunner IIRC). They're most commonly using a battle rifle cartridge like 7.62x51mm NATO or 7.62x54mmR etc. If you specifically mean the L7A2 GPMG the Brits use, that's an FN MAG in 7.62x51mm NATO, should basically behave ~identically to the M60 or M240 from a damage perspective.

Yeah they should be plenty to cause damage, and the M134 minigun certainly should fairly easily take out most unarmored vehicles with just a light burst. In-game though it tends to be really damn hard to get anything swept up with them, even with the ridiculously accurate door gunners. The Kord or the M2 on the other hand absolutely clean house.

For funzies, here's an M60 in 7.62x51mm NATO going against a simulated cinderblock wall with tracers. Fun times.

EDIT: Searching YT a bit, eventually found a video of 7.62x39mm (so way less powerful intermediate cartridge) taking down a piece of cinder block wall filled with concrete. Did take a while, but under 100 rounds still...

 

yea it would be nice if the 7.62 rounds did more damage. IN DCS

i dont know the gaz minigun rounds seem more stronger than huey minigun rounds...IN DCS

Edited May 10, 2024 by hannibal

[jubuttib]

On 5/9/2024 at 10:58 AM, Johnny Dioxin said:

This is what I was referring to - designated the GMPG (nicknamed Gimpy) in the British Army - as I mentioned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_MAG

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0096.html

It has a fearsome reputation, with good reason.

 

Cheers! So indeed, the FN MAG in 7.62x51mm NATO as wielded by the British Army. Fundamentally the same gun as the M240 we'll have on the Chinook, and in terms of damage identical to the M60, but more durable and reliable* (and a couple of kg heavier).

Just yesterday had a session in RotorOps, where it took forever for my door gunners to finish off a few infantry. Just got a looooong list of damage reports, going up at couple of % intervals... Sucks that the 7.62x51mm is such a death by a thousand cuts round in DCS, when in reality it packs a wallop, especially in large amounts...

*To be fair the M60 kinda gets an exaggeratedly bad rap for being unreliable and fragile. Reading up on it and watching some documentaries it did its job in Vietnam especially quite well, but some parts of the construction are wearables, and unfortunately didn't get replaced in time when they should have. This lead to the poor image it developed later on, especially once guns started overall to be pretty shot through. It's not a bad gun, it's just not an infinitely durable one, and to make up for that it also weighs noticeably less than a lot of 7.62x51mm NATO machine guns.

[Pumba298]

The smaller M60 (and FN Mag, etc.) are most used on the ramp as they allow for easier removal when on a FOB or LZ when doing Internal Loads.

For vehicles it's obvious, but also with troops a big gun is more of an obstacle that might increase the time on the ground. The doorguns are, depending on the mission, bigger guns. The Brits used miniguns, the Dutch use .50. Miniguns fire faster, but have lower penetration value, and they work of the A/C Generator, so in case of a crash, your first line of defence is useless.

[AlphaOneSix]

On 5/18/2024 at 2:04 PM, Pumba298 said:

Miniguns fire faster, but have lower penetration value, and they work of the A/C Generator, so in case of a crash, your first line of defence is useless.

AC-powered miniguns went away a long time ago, thanks to Robert's Ridge, although I'm willing to concede that I don't know the state of the Dutch military. Certainly by the time period covered by this version of the CH-47F, all miniguns in the U.S. were DC-powered with a battery backup that's capable of firing the whole can of ammo without aircraft power.

[jubuttib]

On 5/18/2024 at 9:04 PM, Pumba298 said:

the Dutch use .50

Bless the Dutch. .50 cal door guns, 30x173mm (GAU-8) CIWS...

Would really like to have that .50 cal on our Chinook at some point.

[Pumba298]

My flying and thus infolvement with Dutch Chinook airforce operations ended in mid 2011 so my knowledge might be outdated. But miniguns being useless without A/C power was the consensus on our squadron back then. But we went looking for new doorguns in '05 so only a few years after Robert's Ridge. 

[JetCat]

A few stationary Gatlings behind every window for securing the perimeter after landing in Utahraptor or Taliban infested areas.

[ChrisUK27]

RAF Chinooks (UK) fly with two M134 miniguns mounted on either side as in @JetCat photo and an M60 on the Ramp. Would be a good setup to have although I've read that it's M60 to start with, not sure if that includes the ramp, hopefully it does! and the other options including M134 are being considered. The addition of M134 would be especially useful to help protect the cab and it's already in-game, although not in this crewed format on the Huey and the Gazelle. 

[KB1]

Not sure I would call it “confirmed” but here’s a photo from the army.mil website showing 50 cal guns out the front door of the chinook. Not sure which model though, the caption didn't include that.

”A gunner in a U.S. Army CH-47 Chinook helicopter mans a .50-caliber machine gun in support of Operation Provide Comfort efforts to aid the Kurdish refugees who fled the forces of Saddam Hussein in northern Iraq”

[Kev2go]

TM 1-1520-271-10 as pertaining to the US army operated CH47F (2011 publication) only mentions M60D and M240H defensive armament options. M134 is apparently only used on MH47's by 160th SOAR.

Edited July 8, 2024 by Kev2go

[ANDR0ID]

Thanks ok... M134 (even M2/M3 as pictured above) would still be great & welcome as plausible options that would greatly expand the modules playability and ability to be used in a wider variety of mission scenarios. Loadouts can always be limited by mission designers if needed, but I'll continue to advocate for giving players more options. 

[Stackup]

Seems to be only door gunners for now.  Would've thought they would include the ramp gunner too.

[jubuttib]

7 hours ago, Stackup said:

Seems to be only door gunners for now.  Would've thought they would include the ramp gunner too.

How do we actually use them tho? I couldn't find the mappings for setting up the AI rules of engagement or burst lengths like with other helicopters. Are they player only or something?

[Stackup]

6 hours ago, jubuttib said:

How do we actually use them tho? I couldn't find the mappings for setting up the AI rules of engagement or burst lengths like with other helicopters. Are they player only or something?

No, they are definitely not just player only.  I don't currently own the Chinook, I was using it as an AI to drop troops into a hostile LZ and the gunners shot back quite a bit.  Which is a significant improvement over the AI CH-47D which only has door gunners as decoration, they don't actually do anything. 

I would bet that the mappings you are referring to just like the tail gunner and DAFCS among other things will be included "later in early access" ^tm.

[jubuttib]

So you’re expecting them to default to something like “return fire”?

[Stackup]

13 hours ago, jubuttib said:

So you’re expecting them to default to something like “return fire”?

Not sure what you're asking...  I expect the AI CH-47F to utilize the doorgunners in the exact same way I expect any AI helicopter to use its doorgunners.  If there's an enemy unit nearby, the AI shoots at it, and that is exactly what happens with the Chinook.  I don't have any need to program an AI unit to use doorgunners, that's the developers job and they already did it.  If I don't want them to shoot, I can just set the ROE to reflect that choice.

Again, I don't own the module, I'm just using it as an AI and the gunners perform identical to the Huey's gunners in that regard.  I don't have any clue how the gunners work if you're actually trying to fly the Chinook.  I would expect they would work the same way they do in all the other helicopters, but like I said, that is obviously something that has not been added yet given your confusion... 

Only thing more I'd like from the Chinook's gunners is to have the ramp gunner added and more options for their weapons, such as the M134 which it doesn't seem likely we'll get.

[mattjonesgr9]

On 5/6/2024 at 10:01 AM, Johnny Dioxin said:

Actually we need a GPMG (Gimpy)! I don't know how the GPMG (if there is one) in DCS performs, but in real life we used them to knock down walls the enemy were hiding behind. Plenty powerful enough.

As for 7.62mm, well the reason the British Army used it for so many years was because it would put the man down with one bullet, rather than have him still running at you, though full of holes.

British Chinooks only use the M134 on the side doors and the M60 on the rear door because of typical MOD penny pinching