Toe brake axis mapping to rudder pedals not inverting properly?

[Rickshaw]

I am currently using Thrustmaster T-Rudder as my hardware and do not have this issue with any other modules (F-15C, F-14, F-16, and F/A-18).  

I have mapped the toe brakes to their respective rudder pedals.  When the pedals are not depressed, the toe brakes are in the activated (down) position. When I depress the pedals, toe brakes deactivate (up).

No problem, I go into axis tune, and check invert axis.  Now the toe brakes do nothing at all and remain in the activated position when I depress the pedals.  I've tried using as slider, tweaking saturation, curves, everything I can think of to get them working correctly.  

My current work around is to uncheck invert axis (so they work) and press the brake pedals to taxi while using them "in reverse" when I need them. 

I have also noted that on landing rollout, the brakes seem to do nothing at all (taking into account my "reversed" state) and I have no differential braking authority to speak of.  This doesn't seem to match any of the brake comments I've seen on other threads stating the F-15E has really good braking authority.

I really like the plane so far and wondering if there is anything in configuration that I'm missing.  Thanks in advance!

 

[MAXsenna]

Have you set the toe brakes as both sliders AND REVERSED, with no curves and default saturation?
Could you provide some screenshots?
Cheers!

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[Rickshaw]

7 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Have you set the toe brakes as both sliders AND REVERSED, with no curves and default saturation?
 

I have tried that and as well as just slider and just reversed.  They don't function at all in that state.  I have also reverted back default saturation/curvature with no luck.  With EITHER of those selected the brakes don't move at all.

 

So here's the weird part to add:  depressing/releasing the toe brakes will move the pedals but have NO effect on braking at all.  I experimented on an aborted takeoff doing 100kts and had no difference in stopping distance using the pedals.  Then I tried the same abort using the "w" key bound to my wheel brakes.  WOW!  She came to a stop in record distance for me.  When I depress using the keybind, I get the same graphical display of the pedals being depressed but they are actually applied as opposed to the depressed when I have the pedals neutral and they only look depressed.  

I've tried repairing my copy of DCS, clearing all key/axis bindings, hot start vs. cold start-same thing. I am running a clean copy of DCS with no MODs.  I *did* import a joystick and throttle config file, but this issue predates and I reset all controls back to default anyways just to be sure.

Here are a few screenshots as requested.

First one is my left brake setup (right is identical).  

For the second and third, I deflected the rudder full left to make it easier to see.  Second one is with no pressure on the brake pedal.  Third one is with pedal depressed and the brake "raises".  As stated above, there is no braking effect from depressing/releasing the pedals.  There *is* braking power applied when I use "w", and the position of the pedals graphically matches those of the second screenshot.  

I am relatively new to this platform, but is there some FCS/control subpage that shows brakes?  I'm truly scratching my head on this one and any help is appreciated!

 

[MAXsenna]

Well. Something's off. I'd close DCS,and delete the F-15E inputs from Saved Games and start over.

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[Rickshaw]

Thanks, MAX.  I made a backup of all of the files in C:\Users...\Config\Input\, to include disabled.lua and deleted everything.

Unplugged and replugged rudders, full sytem restart.  Ran T-Rudder calibration through Windows and even looked at Target.

Started DCS.  Everything is gone (good sign).

Loaded the training mission and remapped axis for the toe brakes and rudder (not actually flying, so that's all I did).   They show correct again in the mapping window.

Go to the cockpit view, and they do the same inverse.  Haven't given up hope, since the F-14 needs inversion.  Click on the Invert Axis, show correct in mapping window.

Back to cockpit view, and they do nothing again.  I try same as before with sliders, etc.

 

Then I get a little sporty:  I try to invert the Z axis (rudder) and it does not invert, as in, functions 100% normally.  Left is left, right is right.  I go a little further, and I assign my joystick axis for pitch and roll.  Works fine.  I invert the pitch axis (like a monster), and it responds like it should (inverted). 

 

Conclusion:  For some reason, the invert axis for T-rudder is...weird.  I'm still able to get toe brakes, inversion, sliders, etc. for F/A-18, F-5E, F-14.

 

1)  Are you also running a Thrustmaster T-Rudder?

2) If so, could you please share your settings (inverted, slider, curves) that you needed to make them work?

[draconus]

2 hours ago, Rickshaw said:

Are you also running a Thrustmaster T-Rudder?

Please, don't confuse us with this name. T-Rudder is VKB product. Thrustmaster T.Flight Rudder Pedals (TFRP) otoh I do own but I have them connected through my throttle (TWCS) so there may be a difference in device handling. It works fine in modules I own. I had to use "invert" setting for wheelbrake axes in both F-15E and F-14. Slider setting does not matter if you don't use curves as it's symmetric input then.

[Rickshaw]

32 minutes ago, draconus said:

Please, don't confuse us with this name. T-Rudder is VKB product. Thrustmaster T.Flight Rudder Pedals (TFRP) otoh I do own but I have them connected through my throttle (TWCS) so there may be a difference in device handling. 

Ahhhhhhh.......my apologies and I understand.  Yes, I am using the Thrustmaster Flight Rudder Pedals (TFRP) and didn't know that VKB had a similarly named product-they look pretty nice.  Thanks for the education!

Makes sense with the slider/curvature, but trying just about anything at this point.  It's not like it doesn't register the inputs when I invert axis: I see the bars move on the setting page when I depress.  It's that there is nothing when I try to use them in cockpit view.

 

[draconus]

Do you run any additional software/driver like TARGET or Joy2key whatever?

[Rickshaw]

I use Target for initial setup, firmware updates (I have a TM Warthog joystick and throttle) but I don't use it for building any profiles.  Much like DCS, I keep it vanilla and don't install mods. 

[jaylw314]

Screenshots or video with the controls display, RShift+ Enter, would be helpful

[Rickshaw]

 

48 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Screenshots or video with the controls display, RShift+ Enter, would be helpful

jay, first time using video capture and the control display, so I hope it worked.  I start with showing what the "original" state is.  Note that the brakes are in abut 1/2 position, when I depress the "w" key, I get full brake depression.

Next clips are showing as slider, invert, and both.  It's when invert is selected that while it sees the device motion, it does not translate to the aircraft toe brakes.

Edited April 29 by Rickshaw

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Rickshaw said:

 

jay, first time using video capture and the control display, so I hope it worked.  I start with showing what the "original" state is.  Note that the brakes are in abut 1/2 position, when I depress the "w" key, I get full brake depression.

Next clips are showing as slider, invert, and both.  It's when invert is selected that while it sees the device motion, it does not translate to the aircraft toe brakes.

 

For future reference, it'd be good to show the movement of the red dot in the control axis screen as well, it should be able to move from full left to right (or vice versa) with the full travel of the brake movement.  I suspect you've tried to calibrate the pedals with 0% at one end and 100% at the other.  They should be calibrated (like all axes) as -100% to +100%, so your axes only goes halfway (to zero), then stops.  I'm not sure how the TARGET software screws with the control calibration.  For a sanity check, check the USB Game Controllers applet to compare

Edited April 29 by jaylw314

[Rickshaw]

Jay, thanks for the tip.  I can make one-what would be most useful to see?  I will tell you that the weird part is that even with axis inverted, the red dot traverses in the correct direction on the control axis screen but does nothing to affect the pedals in the cockpit view as shown in the previous video.  I've compared it to F/A-18 for reference and it looks the same but I'd appreciate second set of eyes.  Just tell me what would be most helpful to see.

As far as Target, it's the same setup for other aircraft (no profile).  I'm going down the troubleshooting from their site and about to reinstall the drivers, but wary since it's the only module that seems to have issues.

[draconus]

Do you even need the drivers for anything controls related? Jay asked for normal Windows game device check.

[MAXsenna]

Thanks, MAX.  I made a backup of all of the files in C:\Users...\Config\Input\, to include disabled.lua and deleted everything.
Unplugged and replugged rudders, full sytem restart.  Ran T-Rudder calibration through Windows and even looked at Target.
Started DCS.  Everything is gone (good sign).
Loaded the training mission and remapped axis for the toe brakes and rudder (not actually flying, so that's all I did).   They show correct again in the mapping window.
Go to the cockpit view, and they do the same inverse.  Haven't given up hope, since the F-14 needs inversion.  Click on the Invert Axis, show correct in mapping window.
Back to cockpit view, and they do nothing again.  I try same as before with sliders, etc.
 
Then I get a little sporty:  I try to invert the Z axis (rudder) and it does not invert, as in, functions 100% normally.  Left is left, right is right.  I go a little further, and I assign my joystick axis for pitch and roll.  Works fine.  I invert the pitch axis (like a monster), and it responds like it should (inverted). 
 
Conclusion:  For some reason, the invert axis for T-rudder is...weird.  I'm still able to get toe brakes, inversion, sliders, etc. for F/A-18, F-5E, F-14.
 
1)  Are you also running a Thrustmaster T-Rudder?
2) If so, could you please share your settings (inverted, slider, curves) that you needed to make them work?

I did use the TFRP, through a TWCS, before I got my Slaws. Never had an issue with DCS.
If you don't use T.A.R.G.E.T. Why use it all? How and when did you calibrate the pedals? I never did that as they just worked out of the box. To check my peripherals, I use Virpil's free joystick tester.

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[Rickshaw]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Do you even need the drivers for anything controls related? Jay asked for normal Windows game device check.

Missed his question there.  I installed T.A.R.G.E.T. per Thrustmaster's Installation Guide when I purchased my Warthogs in 2019 and kept it since they're they only way to turn off the throttle backlighting I've seen.  When I build my new PC this January, I installed it again for the same reason so I didn't have a nightlight coming from the throttle and see what firmware I am running.

I did go through the Windows USB Game Controllers, performed another calibration, and axis's all check out fine.  I have performed a recalibration about 12 times in the last 3 days, mostly tied to when I restart my machine after tweaking settings.

22 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

I did use the TFRP, through a TWCS, before I got my Slaws. Never had an issue with DCS.
If you don't use T.A.R.G.E.T. Why use it all? How and when did you calibrate the pedals? I never did that as they just worked out of the box. To check my peripherals, I use Virpil's free joystick tester.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Yup-everything has worked fine out of the box as well with the exception of the F-15E module, even with X-Plane.  The TFRP is interesting in itself, as it has an RJ11 style connector that goes through a USB adapter which then plugs directly into the PC.  There is no interface between other components, and I'd would agree that DCS isn't registering the inputs if I didn't get the control display and axis tune bars to move when I manipulate the pedals.  They track just fine.  I'm going to try the joystick tester and see what values it displays as I've always been curious as to how it's measured outside of the Windows Game Controller Properties screen.

I'll defer to you veterans on going direct to RAZBAM to submit a bug report, but it sounds like nobody else can replicate.  That and I kind of went down the rabbit hole in another thread about future F-15E updates.  In the meantime, I still have a good stable of aircraft to fly, even though I was kind of excited to see an updated Eagle on the streets.

[jaylw314]

@Rickshaw

This is what the red dot should do.

Brake pedal up:

nullBrake pedal down:

FYI, you need to move the pedal, otherwise DCS starts the tuning panel with this until you do:

Because it's, well, DCS.

Specifically, make sure the two "In" numbers go from -100 to +100 through the pedal range (if your Saturation Y is set to 100, the "Out" should also have the same range).  If it doesn't, your hardware is reporting it wrong.  

Edited April 29 by jaylw314

[MAXsenna]

@Rickshaw Oh! So you don't really run T.A.R.G.E.T, no virtual joysticks etc? You only installed it? Well, I'm all out of ideas. Except. You calibrate it through Windows? It escapes me, but doesn't TM have a calibration tool? And as for the RJ45, yes that's common when the pedals come as standalone, and not in a kit with the TWCS.

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[rob10]

11 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

 Well, I'm all out of ideas. Except. You calibrate it through Windows? It escapes me, but doesn't TM have a calibration tool?

That's worth looking at.  I know years ago that calibrating TM through Windows could cause issues so might be worth clearing that and using the TM tool.

[Rickshaw]

@MAXsenna  Sorry I wasn't clear, yup, I just use it to turn off the LEDs and update firmware.  I don't do overlays/virtual/etc.

@jaylw314  I started down the path last night of looking at values, could NOT get mine to look like yours, so I yelled obscenities at the device and went to bed.  I got up, started messing with it again thinking about what drivers I would uninstall/reinstall next, and realized I had an ID card appointment and had to leave.

UPDATE:  I came home, opened DCS, and went to fly the F-14 while noticing I needed to remap everything from yesterday's delete.  That seemed like a lot of work, so I went to the F-15E setup page and gave it another try.  IT WORKED.  Mission loaded, op-check complete, function as they should.  Video below.
 

THANK YOU everyone for the help.  I wish I had some kind of definitive contribution to say what I did to make it work.  I'm going through my troubleshooting notes, and from inop to now I have nothing definitive, other than it was a thing that happened where "invert axis" didn't work and the X/Y axis would not act as pedals for the F-15E ONLT. 

 

From yesterday afternoon, all I have is:

16:52- Uninstall drivers

16:59- Reinstall drivers/reboot machine/calibrate

17:04-  Same issue replicate

07:32-  Same issue replicate

 

@rob10  Just posted my "solution".  Did that several times, and as they say, the 3rd (or 17th) time is the charm.

[MAXsenna]

@Rickshaw Excellent!

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