Ray Tracing

[Plokkum]

I know it has been mentioned that DCS will eventually support Ray Tracing with Vulkan (shadows and reflections?)

Is there any news or a timeframe of when we can expect to see this happen and if it's still on the list?

[cfrag]

7 minutes ago, Plokkum said:

DCS will eventually support Ray Tracing with Vulkan

You may have mixed some information here. Vulkan is a more modern, generalized and standardized API to interface your application with graphics hardware (e.g. your graphics card). If you want to draw something, you invoke a number of methods from the API to draw something. There are multiple standards available today (e.g. Vulkan, OpenGL, DirectX etc.)

"Ray Tracing" is a method to render a scene, to visualize the 3D objects. There are multiple ways to go about this, and the by far most common and fastest is 'painter's algorithm', where pixels (or polygons) are sorted by their distance to the camera, and then painted over each other in descending order, so that the closest pixel is drawn last, painted over all other pixels. 

A different method, 'Ray Tracing' casts a ray of light through all pixels in a virtual screen and bouncing them of all objects that they encounter. This algorithm renders much higher quality images (especially for images materials that have reflective properties) and requires orders of magnitude more processing power. It has only recently become available for real-time graphics due to the high processing demands. 

The rendering model (Painters, Ray Trace) are completely independent from the way the rendered scene is transported to your screen (Vulkan, DirectX). This means that implementing Vulkan for DCS has no correlation to bringing a new rendering engine (RayTracing vs Painter's) to DCS, other than the fact the the new API provides better 'hooks' to plug a ray tracing engine into should one ever be developed for DCS.

Long story short: No word on DCS ray tracing other than it's slightly "more likely to be likely" with Vulkan.

 

[Plokkum]

Thanks for chiming in! I do realize Vulkan is an API to interact with the GPU. I'm just wondering where it stands today and what we can expect. According to a newsletter from January 2024, the implementation of ray tracing rendering techniques is likely to happen. Which ray tracing methods (shadows, reflections, ao, etc), I don't know, it doesn't say.

I hope there's some news coming up soon. I'm really hoping for ray traced reflections and AO. Currently the objects (especially aircraft) look plasticy because of the lack of ray traced reflections.

Here's a snippet from the the newsletter:

2024 will see the introduction of the Vulkan API which will offer better frame rates for most players as well as new graphical capabilities such as ray tracing and improved VR performance.

Source: Check out our impressive plans for Vulkan and other DCS Core improvements. (digitalcombatsimulator.com)

[cfrag]

49 minutes ago, Plokkum said:

Here's a snippet from the the newsletter:

Ah,yes. Always remember that in a similar newsletter we were introduced to the new capabilities of the DCS Engine that would allow capabilities like Dynamic Campaigns. That was 2008. IIRC, my memory is failing me with age… Just don’t hold your breath or get your hopes up too high. Eventually, we’ll see reflections and ambient occlusions (the latter is possible in Painter’s with little overhead)

Edited May 8 by cfrag

[draconus]

On 5/8/2024 at 5:07 PM, Plokkum said:

Currently the objects (especially aircraft) look plasticy because of the lack of ray traced reflections.

Really? I thought it's the most perfect thing rendered in DCS, esp. when you have SSLR and SSAO already in the options. Unless you mean some old models like MiG-23 or Tu-95.

The shadows are simple though, I give you that.

Edited May 10 by draconus

[SkateZilla]

the new Canopy reflections are raytraced.

[Dr_Pavelheer]

Realistically what kinds of improvements could RT even bring to DCS? The way I see it due to the nature of the game the disadvantages of classic tricks used in video games aren't as pronounced, a lot of stuff can be either baked in or isn't that noticeable if it falls apart.

Another thing, wouldn't size of the maps and amount of stuff like trees affect performance? Or maybe it's quite the opposite, you could optimize the "fake world" game is tracing rays against to a much higher extent than in normal games?

Edited May 10 by Dr_Pavelheer

[Plokkum]

32 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

the new Canopy reflections are raytraced.

Also in external views?

6 minutes ago, Dr_Pavelheer said:

Realistically what kinds of improvements could RT even bring to DCS? The way I see it due to the nature of the game the disadvantages of classic tricks used in video games aren't as pronounced, a lot of stuff can be either baked in or isn't that noticeable if it falls apart.

Another thing, wouldn't size of the world and amount of stuff like trees affect performance? Or maybe it's quite the opposite, you could optimize the "fake world" game is tracing rays against to a much higher extent than in normal games?

 

It is of course just a visual geek thing.  But one that would be very welcome for people like me

Check the first few seconds of this video and see what an impact ray traced reflections have on the materials.

 

[cfrag]

35 minutes ago, Plokkum said:

It is of course just a visual geek thing

I believe I understand that well. Then again, it may be advantageous to recall that unlike in civil aviation, in a mil aviation type of game people tend to look less at outside views of the plane, and with a higher intensity on the avionics willing to resolve the radar return, get a hit off IFF or frantically checking the FLIR. Reflections on those screens are baked in, but that hardly matters. Now, the reflections on the UH-1 are an atrocity in VR, and that would be a definitive plus (actually, just removing them would be a plus).

While visual reflection splendor is appreciated in DCS (and I do appreciate it), it's not the make-or-break item that it is with many non-mil flight sims. Put simply, we have too little time to ogle at ourselves. Similarly, when another plane gets close enough that we can discern it's finer details, we usually have screwed up and are likely to be dead soon, or it's a formation flight where we seldom have time to appreciate the finer details. Getting close enough to discern baked in reflections from real-time reflections usually means that we have just lost a wing. The other applications for RT are mirrors (here the technology gives us that nearly free), or when on a wet tarmac after rain - but that can again be simulated in classic painter's algorithm with an (expensive) shader. 

So, ray-trace-quality is a definite nice to have. Then again, classic high-quality visuals in VR is currently unattainable in my set-up, so I'm still dreaming of a GPU that allows me to crank up visuals to full classic style. Taking the 20:1 hit for raytracing over classic PA is a few years down the line for me, so not a priority. Then again, getting it started now would allow DCS to mature in this technology, so why not.  

[SkateZilla]

2 hours ago, Plokkum said:

Also in external views?

It is of course just a visual geek thing.  But one that would be very welcome for people like me

Check the first few seconds of this video and see what an impact ray traced reflections have on the materials.

 

AFAIK, Only in the cockpit.

[draconus]

5 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

the new Canopy reflections are raytraced.

Which module?

[SkateZilla]

46 minutes ago, draconus said:

Which module?

iirc F-16 and F-18C for starters, but it should be on all of them.

[average_pilot]

2 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

iirc F-16 and F-18C for starters, but it should be on all of them.

I thought it was some sort of clever texture mapping trick, linking it to the camera position that creates the illusion of glass reflection.

[Bosun]

RayTracing: 

Would this solve the fact that I could be directly under the lights of the carrier's bridge, but my cockpit is still entirely black? I feel like carrier and other environmental lighting has no rendering inside the cockpit, which is a shame. 

[zildac]

Lightning generally still seems a little off, in VR at least. Hornet ready on rhe ramp Caucasus. As soon as you're off the deck it turns from early morning to midday, lighting wise.

[SkateZilla]

9 hours ago, Bosun said:

RayTracing: 

Would this solve the fact that I could be directly under the lights of the carrier's bridge, but my cockpit is still entirely black? I feel like carrier and other environmental lighting has no rendering inside the cockpit, which is a shame. 

Secondary Lighting On, Global Cockpit Illumination On?

[cfrag]

25 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

Secondary Lighting On, Global Cockpit Illumination On?

Do you have any pointers to literature on that? Silly me thought that you can only have one method of rendering you scene: rasterization (painter's algorithm) or ray tracing. DCS is definitely a rasterization engine (z-buffered painter's algorithm). So far I've not heard of anyone successfully mixing ray-tracing into rasterization. Is this ray-tracing perhaps akin to a reflection probe that regularly creates a cube map of the surrounding scene to map onto materials with reflective properties? 

Thank you for any pointers!

Edited May 11 by cfrag

[SkateZilla]

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

Do you have any pointers to literature on that? Silly me thought that you can only have one method of rendering you scene: rasterization (painter's algorithm) or ray tracing. DCS is definitely a rasterization engine (z-buffered painter's algorithm). So far I've not heard of anyone successfully mixing ray-tracing into rasterization. Is this ray-tracing perhaps akin to a reflection probe that regularly creates a cube map of the surrounding scene to map onto materials with reflective properties? 

Thank you for any pointers!

 

I'd have to confirm, I was told it was a type of ray tracing / active reflection rendering, a cube map does make more sense given the excessive amount of post processing shaders running already.

Even then, if it's not actual ray tracing, you'd likely not see anything definitive until Vulkan.

[Bosun]

On 5/11/2024 at 12:42 AM, SkateZilla said:

Secondary Lighting On, Global Cockpit Illumination On?

Yes and yes.  Carrier and airfield lights have never reflected off surfaces inside the cockpit for me.

[Dr_Pavelheer]

@Bosun Out of curiosity, are you running ST or MT exe? I don't know about carrier but airfield lights have provided illumination to cockpit for quite some time now, at least on PG and Syria

Edited May 12 by Dr_Pavelheer

[Bosun]

2 hours ago, Dr_Pavelheer said:

@Bosun Out of curiosity, are you running ST or MT exe? I don't know about carrier but airfield lights have provided illumination to cockpit for quite some time now, at least on PG and Syria

 

Multi