How to win at BFM in the Mighty F-4E Phantom

[=475FG= Dawger]

57 minutes ago, Kirk66 said:

Why turn off yaw stab? Roll stab of course - it's called for in the TO for a good reason, but IRL yaw was never turned off. If it's helping in the game it's a bug.

Vulture

I have had to turn off Yaw Stab Aug in order to strafe a little more accurately. 
 

I have no clue if current behavior with it on is accurate but it’s pretty awful. I suspect it isn’t correct from some anecdotal evidence. 

[lxsapper]

On 6/19/2024 at 2:23 AM, =475FG= Dawger said:

In the beginning of your post the AI doesn’t obey physics and BFM doesn’t work. At the end, it doesn’t matter what you do, you always beat the AI. 

Funny. 
 

NOTE: AI has four skill levels. ROOKIE, TRAINED, VETERAN And ACE. 

I imagine instant action is Rookie. 
 

In any case, if you aren’t easily winning against Rookie and Trained, you need some help with BFM. Veteran and Ace are tougher. Few human opponents fly this precisely but they are still predictable. 
 

Humans are always more interesting to fight. 
 

 

 

It actually depends on the mission, I edited the Caucasus (I think)one to change it to ACE, but default was set to Random, so you can get anything. 

[Kirk66]

On 6/21/2024 at 11:14 AM, =475FG= Dawger said:

I have had to turn off Yaw Stab Aug in order to strafe a little more accurately. 
 

I have no clue if current behavior with it on is accurate but it’s pretty awful. I suspect it isn’t correct from some anecdotal evidence. 

What specific behaviour is being corrected by turning off Yaw aug? I'm curious because I havn't noticed anything out of the ordinary. I do know that rudder authority is a bit low, and yaw stability at high AOA a bit too good, but not sure how turning off Yaw augs will help that behaviour.

And when you say "current behaviour with it on is ...pretty awful" exactly in what way? Compared to what; and based on what? The flight model is pretty close to the real thing in feel, at least with my hardware (with some notable exceptions at high AOA that are known).

And please don't say it is awful compared to any of the teen jets - because well duh - that's why they were designed that way!

Vulture

[=475FG= Dawger]

9 hours ago, Kirk66 said:

What specific behaviour is being corrected by turning off Yaw aug? I'm curious because I havn't noticed anything out of the ordinary. I do know that rudder authority is a bit low, and yaw stability at high AOA a bit too good, but not sure how turning off Yaw augs will help that behaviour.

And when you say "current behaviour with it on is ...pretty awful" exactly in what way? Compared to what; and based on what? The flight model is pretty close to the real thing in feel, at least with my hardware (with some notable exceptions at high AOA that are known).

And please don't say it is awful compared to any of the teen jets - because well duh - that's why they were designed that way!

Vulture

Its awful because with it on, I can’t point the nose with the rudder. Its like a rubber band.
 

I am not saying it isn’t accurate. I haven’t flown an F4.
 

It might be perfectly modeled.

It does suck for anything requiring a stable lateral nose movement like walking gun rounds from wingtip to wingtip or stabilizing the pipper on a dot on the ground.
 

Cross control rolls holding the pipper on target after rolling in on a popup don’t work well with Yaw Stab Aug on either

[Snappy]

3 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

 

Cross control rolls holding the pipper on target after rolling in on a popup don’t work well with Yaw Stab Aug on either

Why do you use cross controls in that context and in which phase of the attack run exactly ? Seriously interested as I don’t understand how it helps to keep pipper on.

Edited June 24, 2024 by Snappy

[Kirk66]

Now I'm really confused with your statement. With all the augs on, or roll and yaw off, or any combination, the rudder authority is pretty much the same and you can move the nose all over the place on a gun run (not that you should, thats a stupid way to waste bullets IMO since you have NO idea where they are going unless the ball is centered). With Yaw aug off, the nose oscillates a few more times before stabilizing if you push then release rudder; with Yaw stab on it damps out pretty fast - but steady state rudder feels pretty much the same. Incidentally, the stafe technique used by F-4s in USAF was to bring pipper on target, track , shoot, track, then recover; shooting at about 3000' slant range or less, cease fire at 2000' and pulling out to avoid ricochets. This is from a pretty shallow (15 to 20 degree) dive. What plane do you get the "spray bullets with the rudder" from?

And why cross controlling? That just makes your nose travel in an arc while you roll, while what you want is to put the flight path on the AOD (in the F-4 the top center of the gunsight is a pretty good point of reference for where the jet is going, depending on your seat height); unload, do a coordinated roll, then start moving the pipper up to the target. Again, where go you get your techniques from? Not saying they don't work for some other airframe, but they are not normal or usual for the F-4, IRL or in DCS.

And yes, I do currently fly aerobatics in power and gliders, and have flown F-4s in the distant past - but OTOH am not a "gamer" so my priorities may be different.

Anyway, the HB F-4 FM is pretty close to the real thing as I (and others) remember. It's not perfect yet, and a sim will always have some inaccuracies.

Cheers,

Vulture

[Victory205]

Something that isn’t widely understood by simmers due to the restraints of modeling is that bullets (and rockets for that matter) don’t behave like a laser. When sideslip is present, the rounds aerodynamically fair into the free stream during the initial part of their travel. You can move the impact point, but it isn’t a 1:1 ratio when firing with a fixed sight. Most computer sights that I’m familiar with do not account for sideslip very well. The latest and greatest might.

I’ve not performed a detailed analysis of bullet trajectories, but last time I paid attention, bullets in flight behaved more like a laser than a projectile that models intricate ballistic phenomena. Good enough for a game though.

[Elf1606688794]

On 6/4/2024 at 8:42 AM, SgtPappy said:

some people are having lots of trouble against AI using techniques that work against people and more realistic flight models

I think that's mainly my problem. I'm trying to BFM them when I need to be playing them like a fiddle. On top of that, I haven't flown air combat games on a regular basis in years so to say I'm a bit rusty is an understatement. Probably need a powered wire wheel to get this stuff off.

Seeing how this game and it's flight model are far more complex than what I've played before I probably need to learn how to navigate and learn some basic flying ie... formation flying, joining formations mid-air refueling, etc...

[=475FG= Dawger]

14 hours ago, Snappy said:

Why do you use cross controls in that context and in which phase of the attack run exactly ? Seriously interested as I don’t understand how it helps to keep pipper on.

 

I am away from the computer this or I would post a video. 
 

On a direct bombing attack, popup or otherwise, the target is displaced to one side and you roll and pull to put the target in the pipper. This puts you inverted so a roll back upright is required. In order to roll the aircraft around the fuselage axis requires use of all the flight controls, including some cross control rudder. 
 

If you don’t do anything other than a coordinated, positive G roll the pipper will be moving in a great big circle. 
 

Chances are you are already doing some or all of what I describe if you are doing much manual bombing. 
 

The Phantom, as I said, feels pretty rubber band like in yaw with stab aug on. I notice it in any situation where I need precise pipper control. Strafing, bombing or close in A/A gunnery when I want precise pipper placement to pop the enemy pilot in the noggin. 
 

I haven’t tried Stab Aug off for bombing or A/A gunnery yet but I will at some point. 
 

Again, it may be modeled accurately. I have flown some jets with similar characteristics although they weren’t fighters. 
 

I don’t like it but it doesn’t mean its wrong. 

[Kirk66]

So the disconnect is that the reticle is not on the roll axis - in A/G it will be considerably below (about 40 mils for guns, 130 mils or so for MK 82s, etc. So you cant use the pipper as a reference to roll the jet. As I mention, depending on where you put your seat, and your speed when you are rolling (which affects where the rolling axis is), you learned to use an approximation - something like the top of the gunsight glass, or the top eyebrow on the caged sight, etc. If you look at the bombing tables we used, there is an AOD (aim off distance) that you point the jet at (using your imaginary flight path axis) and an IPP (initial Pipper Position) where the pipper should end up, short of the target, when you are established on your diving attack. You then maintain constant G (which depends on dive angle, but a bit less than 1) while the pipper tracks to the target, and after adjusting for any error, pickle or pull the trigger. 

Roll-ins are usually at one or less Gs (unloaded), coordinated rolls, NOT looking at the pipper.

An uncoordinated roll is asking for a departure (especially in a hardwing, less so in a slatted E).

Here are real world strafe and dive bomb numbers, note the mils and aiming info (AOD, IPP, etc).

Edited June 24, 2024 by Kirk66

[Kirk66]

Again, this could all depend on the jet - but in the F-4 (unless you are using Dive Toss), if you roll in and put the pipper on the target you WILL miss long if trying to dive bomb. It's not a "put the thing on the thing and press the thing" delivery, like in some other jets.

Which is why I'm curious about what jet you are using that uses this technique. F-86, perhaps?

Vulture

[=475FG= Dawger]

12 hours ago, Kirk66 said:

So the disconnect is that the reticle is not on the roll axis - in A/G it will be considerably below (about 40 mils for guns, 130 mils or so for MK 82s, etc. So you cant use the pipper as a reference to roll the jet. As I mention, depending on where you put your seat, and your speed when you are rolling (which affects where the rolling axis is), you learned to use an approximation - something like the top of the gunsight glass, or the top eyebrow on the caged sight, etc. If you look at the bombing tables we used, there is an AOD (aim off distance) that you point the jet at (using your imaginary flight path axis) and an IPP (initial Pipper Position) where the pipper should end up, short of the target, when you are established on your diving attack. You then maintain constant G (which depends on dive angle, but a bit less than 1) while the pipper tracks to the target, and after adjusting for any error, pickle or pull the trigger. 

Roll-ins are usually at one or less Gs (unloaded), coordinated rolls, NOT looking at the pipper.

An uncoordinated roll is asking for a departure (especially in a hardwing, less so in a slatted E).

Here are real world strafe and dive bomb numbers, note the mils and aiming info (AOD, IPP, etc).

 

I find it a bit hilarious that you are desperately trying to prove I am doing something horribly wrong instead of focusing on whether or not the nose behaving like its connected to a rubber band with Stab Aug on is correct behavior. 
 

PS The zero mil sight line isn’t where the airplane is going. But you already know that, which is why you have an AOD. 

Edited June 25, 2024 by =475FG= Dawger

[Snappy]

17 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

I am away from the computer this or I would post a video. 
 

On a direct bombing attack, popup or otherwise, the target is displaced to one side and you roll and pull to put the target in the pipper. This puts you inverted so a roll back upright is required. In order to roll the aircraft around the fuselage axis requires use of all the flight controls, including some cross control rudder. 
 

If you don’t do anything other than a coordinated, positive G roll the pipper will be moving in a great big circle. 
 

Chances are you are already doing some or all of what I describe if you are doing much manual bombing. 
 

The Phantom, as I said, feels pretty rubber band like in yaw with stab aug on. I notice it in any situation where I need precise pipper control. Strafing, bombing or close in A/A gunnery when I want precise pipper placement to pop the enemy pilot in the noggin. 
 

I haven’t tried Stab Aug off for bombing or A/A gunnery yet but I will at some point. 
 

Again, it may be modeled accurately. I have flown some jets with similar characteristics although they weren’t fighters. 
 

I don’t like it but it doesn’t mean its wrong. 

Ok, thanks for explaining your approach. I've done manual bombing and A-G gun via pop-up as well. Since you are overbanking during the pull-down to target from the pop-up you need to roll upright again afterwards, yes. However I seem to manage fine without crossed controls for that. But whatever works for you.

Edited June 25, 2024 by Snappy

[Kirk66]

No desperation here, just curious about your technique - which I admit I find unusual and unlikely to be accurate in the F-4. I'm more interested in your claim that the behaviour with the Yaw aug on is incorrect, when you claim to have no experience with the F-4. So what are you comparing it to?

You say withYaw aug on the rudder "acts like a rubber band"? What does that mean? That the yaw stability is strong, and damping is strong? That's the point of the Yaw aug, after all - especially needed in the F-4 due to the short, low aspect ratio vertical tail and pronounced adverse yaw at higher AOA. But as far as moving the nose - the rudder seems to do that just fine for me if I need to move it, so where is the rubber band action?

After all, this is a thread about how to fly the F-4  - specifically in BFM - and the behaviour of the jet in yaw is important. So if you have a good reason to think the FM is wrong, please explain why; it's early access after all and there is still plenty of tuning to be done. 

But if you can hit a target your way - then more power to you! Would love to see a track or video.

Cheers,

Vulture

[Victory205]

On 6/24/2024 at 11:26 AM, Kirk66 said:

 

…And why cross controlling? That just makes your nose travel in an arc while you roll, while what you want is to put the flight path on the AOD (in the F-4 the top center of the gunsight is a pretty good point of reference for where the jet is going, depending on your seat height); unload, do a coordinated roll, then start moving the pipper up to the target. Again, where go you get your techniques from? Not saying they don't work for some other airframe, but they are not normal or usual for the F-4, IRL or in DCS.…

Cheers,

Vulture

This is what he’s referencing-

[Elf1606688794]

22 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

On a direct bombing attack

So you're a tool shedder?

[JOEM423]

You dive. gain speed and accelerate downward to escape the death spiral because the F-4 is basically a lead brick and much heavier than the period aircraft, pop chaff and and flare just in case they get a shot off, then zoom back up, hope he follows you, and use stick and rudder to come back down on him, get off an aim 9 heat seeker and he's finished! don't need a lock for the Aim-9 just a good tone!

[SgtPappy]

11 hours ago, JOEM423 said:

You dive. gain speed and accelerate downward to escape the death spiral because the F-4 is basically a lead brick and much heavier than the period aircraft, pop chaff and and flare just in case they get a shot off, then zoom back up, hope he follows you, and use stick and rudder to come back down on him, get off an aim 9 heat seeker and he's finished! don't need a lock for the Aim-9 just a good tone!

Yes I found this works great versus other players, especially when the weapons and aircraft are restricted to the ones accurate to the conflicts of the F-4's prime time. Then again, when all-aspect heaters come out, you can still drain contemporary aircraft of energy and deny their shots if very careful - or just use the more reliable AIM-7F/M and blow through and repeat until they're dead!

Edited July 14, 2024 by SgtPappy

[TOViper]

On 5/23/2024 at 8:58 AM, Tomcatter87 said:

Man, I find the Phantom quite easy to fly - but probably the hardest plane to fight with. I was having a hard time against AI MiG 21 and 19 yesterday - yes, use the vertical, but those AI planes hardly bleed any energy. I dropped all tanks, tried to keep my AOA to the value thats marked in the gauge (is it 19.2?), still those MiGs flew circles around me, I couldn't even extend away, because those 21s are really fast, too. Any hints would be much appreciated.

Hint: Fly against humans, not overdriven pseudo-AI that are fighting with cheat-mode set to ON

This adds much fun, and much realism in terms of aircraft performance.

Edited October 21, 2024 by TOViper

[Kalasnkova74]

50 minutes ago, TOViper said:

Hint: Fly against humans, not overdriven pseudo-AI that are fighting with cheat-mode set to ON

This adds much fun, and much realism in terms of aircraft performance.

 

AI bias or not, it is worth pointing out that the MiG-21 in game is very different from the ones the U.S. faced in Southeast Asia.

US forces initially faced the MiG-17 and MiG-21F-13, neither of which could fight the F-4 Phantom II in the vertical unless the Soviet fighters engaged with an energy advantage. Thus, the tactical advice to engage using “the egg” & leveraging the F-4s climb performance advantage. 

Unlike those earlier MiGs, the BiS in game has the T/W to compete with the F-4E in the vertical(as does the MiG-19). 
 

 

[Spirale]

11 hours ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

AI bias or not, it is worth pointing out that the MiG-21 in game is very different from the ones the U.S. faced in Southeast Asia.

US forces initially faced the MiG-17 and MiG-21F-13, neither of which could fight the F-4 Phantom II in the vertical unless the Soviet fighters engaged with an energy advantage. Thus, the tactical advice to engage using “the egg” & leveraging the F-4s climb performance advantage. 

Unlike those earlier MiGs, the BiS in game has the T/W to compete with the F-4E in the vertical(as does the MiG-19). 
 

 

+1