Flight model questions

[Harley Davidson]

Hi Guys,

I just started flying he F4 and was watching some videos on the F4 combat in Vietnam, those Smithsonian videos and some others on how the pilots maneuvered when encountering migs in dogfights. Of course I tried to use high speed and tried to replicate what Olds did etc.  I feel the speed bleed off is way to much when using the vertical and trying the cross over maneuvers, acceleration is also kinda sluggish, anyone else tried these?

I was watching a video on the real life F16 pilots trying the Viper and they commented that the speed bleed off was way to much and acceleration was to low from what they remembered flying the real jet. After a few months DCS increased the acceleration and lowered the speed bleed off and the Viper responds much better now. I was wondering if there is any real F4 pilots trying out the new heat blur module?  Any of you gamer pilots have any good ideas when trying to fight the AI or is it just "you get what you get" and try to discover new ways to ACM within the game?

[LanceCriminal86]

The F-4s in Vietnam were "hard wing" without slats (except a small number in late 72 during Linebacker II), and of course would perform and maneuver differently than these mid-late 70s+ F-4Es with slats. The aircraft is of course going to bleed speed differently as the slats deploy, and even with them locked in the outer wing sections still have a fixed slat that will result in different flight dynamics.

[upyr1]

3 hours ago, Harley Davidson said:

Hi Guys,

I just started flying he F-4 and was watching some videos on the F-4 combat in Vietnam, those Smithsonian videos and some others on how the pilots maneuvered when encountering migs in dogfights. Of course I tried to use high speed and tried to replicate what Olds did etc.  I feel the speed bleed off is way to much when using the vertical and trying the cross over maneuvers, acceleration is also kinda sluggish, anyone else tried these?

Someone else has brought up the issue of hard wing vs slated I will also bring up the fact that Robin Olds flew the F-4C and according to a late Phantom pilot I followed the later variants had a slightly lower thrust to weight ratio do to more avionics. 

3 hours ago, Harley Davidson said:

I was watching a video on the real life F16 pilots trying the Viper and they commented that the speed bleed off was way to much and acceleration was to low from what they remembered flying the real jet. After a few months DCS increased the acceleration and lowered the speed bleed off and the Viper responds much better now. I was wondering if there is any real F4 pilots trying out the new heat blur module?  Any of you gamer pilots have any good ideas when trying to fight the AI or is it just "you get what you get" and try to discover new ways to ACM within the game?

I would agree we need someone to provide some feedback here. I hope we can get a Greek or Turkish pilot to comment on the flight model. 

[GrmlZ]

Also remember that the Mig-21F-13 Olds would have faced in Vietnam are very different aircraft than the Mig-21bis we have in DCS.

The older Mig-21s were much lighter, but also had much less thrust.

So the same tactics dont necessarily apply.

Mig-21F-13

Spoiler

Spoiler

Mig-21bis

Edited May 28, 2024 by GrmlZ

[Harley Davidson]

I have come to understand the the F4E was just a power and vertical maneuver beast. I'm trying to feel my way through some tactics. If it doesn't have the power for that or that it isn't a turn fighter.. what do you do besides trying to just jump an unaware opponent. The F4 is a big heavy bird but those massive twin engines must account for something.

I remember that the F14 was the same when it first came out but now she is amazing.

[Snappy]

11 hours ago, Harley Davidson said:

I have come to understand the the F4E was just a power and vertical maneuver beast. I'm trying to feel my way through some tactics. If it doesn't have the power for that or that it isn't a turn fighter.. what do you do besides trying to just jump an unaware opponent. The F4 is a big heavy bird but those massive twin engines must account for something.

I remember that the F14 was the same when it first came out but now she is amazing.

Have you checked the sticky how-to-win-at-BFM thread here in the F-4 section of the forums?

Edited May 29, 2024 by Snappy

[GrmlZ]

12 hours ago, Harley Davidson said:

I have come to understand the the F4E was just a power and vertical maneuver beast. I'm trying to feel my way through some tactics. If it doesn't have the power for that or that it isn't a turn fighter.. what do you do besides trying to just jump an unaware opponent. The F4 is a big heavy bird but those massive twin engines must account for something.

I remember that the F14 was the same when it first came out but now she is amazing.

Well, staying fast and using the vertical is still the general idea, the plane can actually sustain a very high G load at 500 + knots  .  Though you might want to not go to steeply up, use high yoyos.

The thing is though, the F-4E is still new and we all are still learning it, so i would just experiment and see what works best for you. Again, most of the stuff written about the F-4 when it comes to BFM focuses on older Planes, Mig-17,19, early Mig-21F. We only have the 19 in DCS. And the Mig-21Bis with its higher wingloading but also higher thrust than the 21F is closer to the F-4 in performance than early 21s. With the emergency AB on the Mig-21s thrust to weight is even higher than that off the F-4.  However with the Mig being a delta wing i would suspect that the Mig-21bis would still lose a 2 circle fight. However we will see if that is really the case and how things turn out once people have more experience in the Plane and the matchup. Thats for PVP.

Vs AI you have the extra problem that the simpler AI FM's of many modules that you would pair against the F-4 have some very weird behaviour when it comes to energy retention. 

When i fly the F-4 vs the AI i had actually the most fun flying vs the F-14A. 

Edited May 29, 2024 by GrmlZ

[Kalasnkova74]

20 hours ago, Harley Davidson said:

Hi Guys,

I just started flying he F4 and was watching some videos on the F4 combat in Vietnam, those Smithsonian videos and some others on how the pilots maneuvered when encountering migs in dogfights. Of course I tried to use high speed and tried to replicate what Olds did etc.  I feel the speed bleed off is way to much when using the vertical and trying the cross over maneuvers, acceleration is also kinda sluggish, anyone else tried these?

I was watching a video on the real life F16 pilots trying the Viper and they commented that the speed bleed off was way to much and acceleration was to low from what they remembered flying the real jet. After a few months DCS increased the acceleration and lowered the speed bleed off and the Viper responds much better now. I was wondering if there is any real F4 pilots trying out the new heat blur module?  Any of you gamer pilots have any good ideas when trying to fight the AI or is it just "you get what you get" and try to discover new ways to ACM within the game?

Thing is, real world F-4E pilots worked in a team. The real world tactical manuals and suggestions being shared are written with that assumption in mind. If you have a wingman , it exponentially increases the effectiveness of each F-4E as one can climb while the other presses the fight until the bandit out turns them. This is how the USAF won the day in Southeast Asia agains the agile MiGs. 

Then the wingman takes point, and the cycle continues until the bandit dies or the Phantoms disengage. 

One on one - the typical game situation - changes things for the worse. Without a wingman to watch your back, vertical turns have to be timed VERY carefully or the F-4E will be caught by the bandit at the top of the climb & gunned.  Failure to accurately assess  the bandits energy state - or bleeding too much energy in the climb relative to the bandit - will also result in this outcome. 
 

Maintaining energy with lag pursuit turns and rolls is paramount, and it’s not the kind of BFM people learn fighting Hornets and Vipers. As many of us noted months ago when the module was still in development , the F-4E presents a different BFM challenge versus earlier aircraft. All of us must to adapt to the Phantom II “Aerial Martial Art”, and how long that takes is obviously an individual journey. Someone that started off in an F/A-18 will have a tougher journey than someone accustomed to an F-15E or F-14 Tomcat.
 

 

[Victory205]

12 hours ago, Harley Davidson said:

I have come to understand the the F4E was just a power and vertical maneuver beast. I'm trying to feel my way through some tactics. If it doesn't have the power for that or that it isn't a turn fighter.. what do you do besides trying to just jump an unaware opponent. The F4 is a big heavy bird but those massive twin engines must account for something.

I remember that the F14 was the same when it first came out but now she is amazing.

The F14 was grossly over performing when it came out, which took a considerable amount of time to match to the performance charts. In due course, @fat creasonused an innovative technique to solve. Your perspective may be biased depending upon when you purchased the module, because we went from ridiculously high max speeds and maneuvering capabilities, to slightly underperforming, before @fat creason designed a brilliant method to solve a complex, tedious challenge. A significant challenge was solving the DCS modeling of external stores drag.

The F-4E is matching the performance in the charted config that are accessible right now. Reading or watching videos and declaring a “feeling” that it’s on or off isn’t a valid method. If something is discovered, to be in error, then it will be checked and tuned. I think it performs better than my own (unsubstantiated) personal expectations, but I had to recalibrate to much higher corner velocities for max performance after studying the performance charts. Those higher speeds require fine control inputs for max performance.

Edited May 29, 2024 by Victory205

[USA_Recon]

12 hours ago, Harley Davidson said:

I have come to understand the the F4E was just a power and vertical maneuver beast. I'm trying to feel my way through some tactics. If it doesn't have the power for that or that it isn't a turn fighter.. what do you do besides trying to just jump an unaware opponent. The F4 is a big heavy bird but those massive twin engines must account for something.

I remember that the F14 was the same when it first came out but now she is amazing.

it's called a brick for a reason...  if you can maintain good rate speed it would help you, if you try to just yank it around you'll be in trouble.  

Best approach... fly with a wingman :)

[PhantomHans]

I admit it feels sluggish in terms of straight line acceleration but only a little bit.

 

Bleeding speed in turns doesn't surprise me.  Didn't they used to say the Phatom was good for one good turn, maybe two, and then totally spent on energy?